Nerath and Greyhawk

The civilized world has been reduced to a series of points of light in a great wilderness of danger and monsters.
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Havard
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Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Havard » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 am

With all the shared elements between the Nerath Setting and Greyhawk, has there been any fan speculation about integrating the two settings? Could the Nentir Vale somehow exist in Greyhawk's future? Would that even remotely work?

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Big Mac » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:15 pm

I'm not sure if the maps would line up. I know there was a Greyhawk 2000 thing. Nentir Vale would need to be beyond that.

There are a bunch of parallel worlds in Greyhawk's background (five if I recall correctly). Perhaps Nentir Vale could be used as one of the ones that was not detailed very much. If Nerath's world was a "dark version of Oerth" it would allow the GM to raid even more GH stuff to help them fill in more of the blank areas.

But does every shared element in Nentir Vale come from Greyhawk? That is something I've been trying to find out in my Is there a list of raided elements? thread.
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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Paladyn » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:45 pm

I had a similiar thought, for me Nerath is a new Greyhawk, much the same in athmosfere as Flaness after the "From the Ashes" boxed set. I wrote a post but beware it is n polish ( I run a quasi regular blog about RPG and D&D in particular). Link

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:38 pm

Havard wrote:With all the shared elements between the Nerath Setting and Greyhawk, has there been any fan speculation about integrating the two settings? Could the Nentir Vale somehow exist in Greyhawk's future? Would that even remotely work?

-Havard
I'm fine with stealing ideas from Nerath/Nentir Vale and incorporating them into Greyhawk. The maps are so different, though, that I think only a cataclysm of unprecedented scale could explain the differences—something along the lines of Ravenloft turning every single country into a domain of dread, rearranging them, and then spitting them out again.

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Havard » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:51 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:I'm fine with stealing ideas from Nerath/Nentir Vale and incorporating them into Greyhawk. The maps are so different, though, that I think only a cataclysm of unprecedented scale could explain the differences—something along the lines of Ravenloft turning every single country into a domain of dread, rearranging them, and then spitting them out again.
I was thinking something like:

1. Ditch the Nerath Board Game map.
2. Bael Turath = Iuz
3. Arkhosia = Great Kingdom
4. Advance a few centuries.

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:51 pm

If you're going to ditch the map, I'd make Bael Turath a prehistoric Flan kingdom, though I'm not sure if it should be built along the Flanmi River, the Trask River, the Veng River, or all three (and more). The Flanmi and Trask rivers were known sites of ancient Ur-Flannae depravity, and I thought I'd throw the Veng River into the mix just because it's where the Horned Society would be later on. It could be as big as you needed it to be.

I'd thought of making Bael Turath fall after a war with Tostenhca (where the evil wizard Keraptis ruled), the Isles of Woe, ancient Ahlissa, or a neighboring empire of demon or Tiamat worshipers (if Bael Turath was on the Trask River, it could have gone to war with worshipers of Tiamat and Demogorgon on the Flanmi, perhaps eventually conquering them). Or just a civil war. I don't think the idea of a massive empire of dragonborn ruled by dragons fits very well into Greyhawk's past, but others may disagree. Really, little enough is known about the Flanaess prior to the Great Migrations that you can put almost anything there; I just don't happen to like dragonborn very much, and I think an empire ruled by dragons is a little high-powered and over the top to fit my vision of Greyhawk.

Nerath seems a safe equivalent of the Great Kingdom.

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Havard » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:11 am

ripvanwormer wrote:If you're going to ditch the map, I'd make Bael Turath a prehistoric Flan kingdom, though I'm not sure if it should be built along the Flanmi River, the Trask River, the Veng River, or all three (and more). The Flanmi and Trask rivers were known sites of ancient Ur-Flannae depravity, and I thought I'd throw the Veng River into the mix just because it's where the Horned Society would be later on. It could be as big as you needed it to be.

I'd thought of making Bael Turath fall after a war with Tostenhca (where the evil wizard Keraptis ruled), the Isles of Woe, ancient Ahlissa, or a neighboring empire of demon or Tiamat worshipers (if Bael Turath was on the Trask River, it could have gone to war with worshipers of Tiamat and Demogorgon on the Flanmi, perhaps eventually conquering them). Or just a civil war. I don't think the idea of a massive empire of dragonborn ruled by dragons fits very well into Greyhawk's past, but others may disagree. Really, little enough is known about the Flanaess prior to the Great Migrations that you can put almost anything there; I just don't happen to like dragonborn very much, and I think an empire ruled by dragons is a little high-powered and over the top to fit my vision of Greyhawk.

Nerath seems a safe equivalent of the Great Kingdom.
I like this!
Nerath as the Great Kingdom sounds perfect. I tend to agree with you about Dragonborn. Interestingly Dragonborn play an almost insignificant role in the Nentir Vale micro-setting anyway. I tend to prefer Dragonborn as presented in the 3E Races of the Dragon book. Individuals who are bestowed draconic attributes as a reward for their services to Bahamuth. Perhaps Arkhosia could instead have been a realm dedicated to Bahamuth back in the Ur-Flann days?

Using your model would you set the Nentir Vale era immediately after the Greyhawk Wars or perhaps 100 years into the future to match the FR timeline?

-Havard

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Zeromaru X » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:40 pm

I cast raise dead!! :ugeek:

Canonically speaking? Nerath is an alternative world to Oerth, as Mordenkainen visited it while writing his "Magnificent Emporium", a catalogue of magical items from many worlds (although the 4e sourcebook only give us items related with the Nentir Vale world), at some point after the Greyhwak Wars (as the book mentions that Otiluke is already dead by the time Mordenkainen finished this book).

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by ripvanwormer » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:38 pm

I posted some thoughts on fitting Nentir Vale into Oerth in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=72&t=5845

My favorite is between the Flinty Hills and Blemu Hills north of Knurl.

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:39 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:I cast raise dead!! :ugeek:

Canonically speaking? Nerath is an alternative world to Oerth, as Mordenkainen visited it while writing his "Magnificent Emporium", a catalogue of magical items from many worlds (although the 4e sourcebook only give us items related with the Nentir Vale world), at some point after the Greyhwak Wars (as the book mentions that Otiluke is already dead by the time Mordenkainen finished this book).
That's interesting. Is there any mention of how Mordenkainen travels to and from Nentir Vale?

Is there anything in the book that could lock the Greyhawk calendar dates and Nentir Vale calendar dates together?

Does the book create canon that proves that any other campaign settings are not on the same planet as Nentir Vale?
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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:54 pm

Big Mac wrote:That's interesting. Is there any mention of how Mordenkainen travels to and from Nentir Vale?
Nope. He even destroyed the book (the in-universe Magnificent Emporium) after he wrote it, because in the end he considered the knowledge he compiled too dangerous. As I said before, the Magnificent Emporium had info about magic items of many worlds, not just Nerath (the real life sourcebook only focus in the 4e core world, though. So, we have many unrelated items, and many others specifically related to the empires of Arkhosia, Bael Turath and Nerath, and the Nentir Vale of the "current years").

We do have a few excerpts of the original book thanks to one of his ex-apprentices, Qort (the few pages and paragraphs published in the 4e sourcebook), who published them without Mordenkainen's permission, and risking his life in doing so (so, perhaps he may be dead right now. Or least forced to hide from Mordenkainen).

We do know, however, that Inverness Castle exists in Oerth and in the Nentir Vale at the same time. The adventure "The March of the Phantom Brigade", that is set in the Nentir Vale, specifically states that Inverness Castle came to the Vale from another world. It just appeared from nothingness one night. So, we know that Nentir Vale is equivalent to whatever region Inverness Castle lies in Oerth.
Big Mac wrote:Is there anything in the book that could lock the Greyhawk calendar dates and Nentir Vale calendar dates together?
Besides the fact that Mordenkainen specifically says that he "use an orb made by Otiluke. I miss his whimsy." (page 45), there are no dates for when Mordenkainen wrote the Magnificent Emporium. However, that means the book was written some time after the Greyhawk Wars (as Otiluke dies in those wars, IIRC). For the Nentir Vale end, there are many mentions to the Nentir Vale, and is all info about recent years. It even mentions some NPC from NV sources (like Major Goldspinner from Hammerfast, who has been the major of the dwarven settlement since the last 4 yours, in the NV canon campaign).

So, that means Oerth post-Greyhawk Wars (after Otiluke's death) = Nentir Vale, current years.
Big Mac wrote:Does the book create canon that proves that any other campaign settings are not on the same planet as Nentir Vale?
At least canon statements that Nentir Vale isn't located in Oerth, as Mordenkainen specifically states that the items in the book are from "other worlds. And no, I do not imply other planes, but other places—places filled with various lands and countries with inhabitants that see themselves as the most important and central to the universe, just as we do. I care little for them, as I am from this world, this Oerth." (p.4)

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Re: Nerath and Greyhawk

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:21 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:We do have a few excerpts of the original book thanks to one of his ex-apprentices, Qort (the few pages and paragraphs published in the 4e sourcebook), who published them without Mordenkainen's permission, and risking his life in doing so (so, perhaps he may be dead right now. Or least forced to hide from Mordenkainen).
Qort first appeared in WG7 Castle Greyhawk, incidentally. Like the other apprentices that appeared in that adventure, he was a 22nd level magic-user and his alignment was chaotic neutral.

That adventure also talks a little bit about Mordenkainen's habit of traveling to other worlds:
WG7 wrote:You see, after completely exploring the World of Greyhawk, growing weary of expeditions to the relatively boring outer planes, and wincing at the thought of just one more voyage to the extremely boring inner planes, Mordenkainen turned his attention toward mapping out the various alternate Prime Material planes he had discovered during his adventures.
In WG7, Qort is one of the apprentices helping to film a special effects sequence for a fantasy movie that Mordenkainen is making for filmmakers on Earth.
Zeromaru wrote:So, we know that Nentir Vale is equivalent to whatever region Inverness Castle lies in Oerth.
The foothills of the Abbor-Alz overlooking Woolly Bay, in the Domain of Greyhawk.
Zeromaru wrote:(as Otiluke dies in those wars, IIRC).
Otiluke died just before the signing of the Treaty of Greyhawk that ended the wars in Harvester, 584 CY.

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