Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

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Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Knightfall » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:01 am

So, Elsir Vale is the the setting for the 3.5E module, Red Hand of Doom.

In many ways, it seems like Elsir Vale was the precursor setting to Nentir Vale. The names are very similar. I can't remember, but I think that Richard Baker (or James Jacobs) once said, somewhere, that the similarities are just a coincidence. But I could be wrong.

Regardless, I think it would be fairly easy to combine the two settings into one region. Here's the official Elsir Vale map, which I just found online.

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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Big Mac » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:19 am

Wow! That map style does look similar. :shock:

I suppose you would want to look at the High Res Map of Nerath, to see if there is an area where you can add Elsir Vale.

There is a thread on ENWorld called Expanding Elsir Vale that seems to suggest that a couple of 4e adventures from Dungeon are set in Elsir Vale, so you might want to work out where they go before merging the maps.

RPG.net has a thread called Elsir Vale/Nentir Vale link, where someone has shown how Elsir Vale can fit with both Nentir Vale and The Sapphire Sea*. That map would seem to put Elsir Vale just to the left of the Nereth map (perhaps west of Trollhaunt Warrens). I'm not sure if The Sapphire Sea would fit with the western side of the Nereth map (perhaps it would be west of Nera). Or maybe the map linked from RPG.net is more abstract and could be stretched.

* = To be honest, I'm not sure what The Sapphire Sea is and if it relates to Elsir Vale or Nentir Vale. :?
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Havard » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:10 pm

I have been thinking about the same thing. However, isnt the Elsir Vale said to be of a southern location, while Nentir vale is located in a more northernly place?

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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Knightfall » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:47 am

Big Mac wrote:Wow! That map style does look similar. :shock:

I suppose you would want to look at the High Res Map of Nerath, to see if there is an area where you can add Elsir Vale.

There is a thread on ENWorld called Expanding Elsir Vale that seems to suggest that a couple of 4e adventures from Dungeon are set in Elsir Vale, so you might want to work out where they go before merging the maps.

Thanks for the links. I had seen the high res map before. I know the Chaos Scar adventure path is tied directly to Elsir vale, but I wasn't sure if the AP also incorporates Elsir Vale into Nerath.

Big Mac wrote:RPG.net has a thread called Elsir Vale/Nentir Vale link, where someone has shown how Elsir Vale can fit with both Nentir Vale and The Sapphire Sea*. That map would seem to put Elsir Vale just to the left of the Nereth map (perhaps west of Trollhaunt Warrens). I'm not sure if The Sapphire Sea would fit with the western side of the Nereth map (perhaps it would be west of Nera). Or maybe the map linked from RPG.net is more abstract and could be stretched.

* = To be honest, I'm not sure what The Sapphire Sea is and if it relates to Elsir Vale or Nentir Vale. :?

On the high-res map, there is a "Sapphire Bay" shown near the bottom of the map south of Nera Bay and The Golden Shores.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Havard » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:30 am

I guess this is the map you guys are referring to?
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ugj9u8.png

BTW, which adventures were set in the Elsir Vale?

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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:51 am

Havard wrote:BTW, which adventures were set in the Elsir Vale?

-Havard


Just Red Hand of Doom.

I believe the Living Greyhawk campaign put Elsir Vale in the March of Sterich.

Ah, yes, it did. Or, in any case, it set Red Hand of Doom in Sterich. Sterich looks like this.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Big Mac » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:17 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:BTW, which adventures were set in the Elsir Vale?

-Havard


Just Red Hand of Doom.

I believe the Living Greyhawk campaign put Elsir Vale in the March of Sterich.

Ah, yes, it did. Or, in any case, it set Red Hand of Doom in Sterich. Sterich looks like this.


I'd love to ask questions about this, but rather than derail this Nentir Vale/Elsir Vale thread, I've started a thread in the Greyhawk forum called: Greyhawk's Elsir Vale.

@Havard: Sorry for missing out the link to the thread at RPG.net. I'm not sure I can locate it now. :oops:
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby night_druid » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:36 am

Heh, actually, both vale maps reminds me a lot of the surface world map to Night Below. Lake in the north, river runs E-W, with forests through the middle.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:23 am

ripvanwormer wrote:Just Red Hand of Doom.


Oh, I take that back. The Scales of War adventure path in the early 4e Dungeon magazines started in Elsir Vale. So Elsir Vale adventures include:

"Rescue at Rivenroar" - Dungeon #156 (takes place in Brindol; this is one of the only adventures in the series to take place in the Elsir Vale map as such).
"Siege of Bordrin's Watch" - Dungeon #157 (this adventure takes place to the west of the Elsir Vale map, in the city of Overlook on the edge of the Stonehome Mountains).
"The Shadow Rift of Umberforge" - Dungeon #158 (takes place mostly in the Shadowfell)
"The Lost Mines of Karak" - Dungeon #159 (takes place in the Stonehome Mountains).
"Den of the Destroyer" - Dungeon #160 (this adventure takes place in the Elsir Vale map again, as the characters travel back from Overlook to Brindol).
"The Temple Between" - Dungeon #161 (back to Overlook)
"Fist of Mourning" - Dungeon #162 (this adventure has a map in it that shows how the Stonehome Mountains and Overlook connect to the Elsir River and Westdeep Forest, and thus to the Elsir Vale map; note that if you believe this map, the Elsir River begins in both the Stonehome Mountains and the Giantshield Mountains and I guess kind of meets in the middle, flows into Lake Rhestin, and disappears)
"Beyond the Mottled Tower" - Dungeon #163 (the characters go back on to the Elsir Vale map, to the village of Talar just west of Brindol, but much of this adventure takes place in the Elemental Chaos).
"Haven of the Bitter Glass" - Dungeon #164 (the characters travel from Overlook to the town of Sayre, which is in a valley 20 miles away. It's not clear which direction, but my guess is that it's somewhere to the south or north of the Stonehome Mountains, but still touching that mountain range.)
"Alliance at Nefelus" - Dungeon #165 (this adventure goes way, way off the map, to the tropical island nation of Nefelus. The adventure begins on a boat, and there's no attempt to show how the characters get from Sayre to there. They just do, somehow.)
"Throne of the Stone-Skinned King" - Dungeon #166 (the characters travel back to Sayre somehow, and swiftly move into the Feywild)
"Garaitha's Anvil" - Dungeon #167 (three days from Sayre, the watchtower of Thiradith is noted to be a rebuilt ruin of Nerath, which finally ties this adventure path to the Nentir Vale setting, at least vaguely. There's no map.)
"A Tyranny of Souls" - Dungeon #168 (here, the adventurers travel almost directly to the Astral Sea)
"Betrayal at Monadhan" - Dungeon #170 (this adventure begins in Sayre, but moves immediately to the Shadowfell)
"Grasp of the Mantled Citadel" - Dungeon #171 (the adventurers are still in the Shadowfell)
"Legacy of Io" - Dungeon #172 (the adventurers go to Hestavar in the Astral Sea)
"Those Once Loyal" - Dungeon #173 (the adventurers go to the plane of Celestia)
"Test of Fire" - Dungeon #174 (the adventurers stop back in Sayre briefly, but quickly move to the City of Brass in the Elemental Chaos)
"Last Breath of the Dragon Queen" - Dungeon #175 (from the City of Brass, the adventurers travel to Tiamat's home plane. No Elsir Vale stuff here, and that concludes the adventure path)

Because the Kingdom of Nerath evidently extended into the Sayre region, I'd put Elsir Vale somewhere to the west of Nentir Vale on the Nerath map. The island of Nefelus would likely be somewhere to the south of the Nerath map. On the Greyhawk map, I'd put Nefelus in the Dramidj Ocean based on its possible connection to Kwalish.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Big Mac » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:05 am

night_druid wrote:Heh, actually, both vale maps reminds me a lot of the surface world map to Night Below. Lake in the north, river runs E-W, with forests through the middle.


I did a search for Night Below maps. Is this part of the map you are talking about?:
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby night_druid » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:05 am

Big Mac wrote:
night_druid wrote:Heh, actually, both vale maps reminds me a lot of the surface world map to Night Below. Lake in the north, river runs E-W, with forests through the middle.


I did a search for Night Below maps. Is this part of the map you are talking about?:


No, that's Cormyr from Forgotten Realms. Do a search for Haranshire map. That should lead you where you want to go.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Big Mac » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:19 pm

night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
night_druid wrote:Heh, actually, both vale maps reminds me a lot of the surface world map to Night Below. Lake in the north, river runs E-W, with forests through the middle.


I did a search for Night Below maps. Is this part of the map you are talking about?:


No, that's Cormyr from Forgotten Realms. Do a search for Haranshire map. That should lead you where you want to go.


Well spotted. That was too zoomed in for me to pick that up.

I found one. It is too big to post here, but as the page it was on was a Night Below campaign, that is incorporating Haranshire as an area to the south and east of Nentir Vale, I think the link to that campaign might be more appropriate to post: Night Below: Haranshire.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Dragonhelm » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:58 am

Just saw a post on EN World by Claudio Pozas that has some info about the two vales. Thought you guys might find this interesting.

And we know that somewhere to the South of the Nentir Vale is the vale from the Red Hand of Doom/Scales of War adventures.


Pretty slick, huh?
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:11 am

Except there's really no place for Elsir Vale due south on the official Nerath map, so it must be to the west. It could be both south and west, of course, but if you go too far south you end up in the desert. West and only slightly south seems better; I think it should be more or less in the same climate zone, so I'd keep it north of the Golden Savannah.

The Living Greyhawk campaign put Haranshire on their map of the Yeomanry, incidentally, just north of the Tors. The Shrieken Mire is part of the Hool Marshes. Maldin put it in the same area.

Here's an excerpt from the map Rich Oliver made for the Living Greyhawk Yeomanry triad:
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Big Mac » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:11 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:Just saw a post on EN World by Claudio Pozas that has some info about the two vales. Thought you guys might find this interesting.

And we know that somewhere to the South of the Nentir Vale is the vale from the Red Hand of Doom/Scales of War adventures.


Pretty slick, huh?


Could you add a link to that, please Trampas.

Also, is there any qualification for the "we know"? Is the guy talking about his homebrew Nentir Vale campaign, or has he hinted at something "official" from WotC? If this post is referring to something official I'd love to go back to that source. :cool:

ripvanwormer wrote:Except there's really no place for Elsir Vale due south on the official Nerath map, so it must be to the west. It could be both south and west, of course, but if you go too far south you end up in the desert. West and only slightly south seems better; I think it should be more or less in the same climate zone, so I'd keep it north of the Golden Savannah.


I'd agree with that. The Nerath map pretty much blows any eastern or southern fanon out of the water (if you want to try to remain compatible with WotC). There is the Barony of Therund to the south of Nentir Vale and the woodlands do curl around the Nentir Vale area to the south east of Nentir Vale. If there isn't anything already there it might be possible to squeeze Haranshire into that area.

Failing that, I think that (if someone insisted on south and east of Nentir Vale) they would need to locate it across the water. That might not be such a bad thing, if someone wanted to add Elsir Vale and maybe Haranshire onto the map of Nerath, as it could spread the better developed areas around a bit.

Perhaps Haranshire could go on the big island (I don't know the name ;( ) in the middle of the lake/sea between Nerath, Karkoth, Vailin and the Iron Circle. Geographically, Amil Forest or Zembar could be places to locate it. But I'm not sure what sort of canon exists for those areas. :?

ripvanwormer wrote:The Living Greyhawk campaign put Haranshire on their map of the Yeomanry, incidentally, just north of the Tors. The Shrieken Mire is part of the Hool Marshes. Maldin put it in the same area.


Anything done by Nentir Vale seems to be getting done by Living Greyhawk too. :cool:
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby rabindranath72 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:07 pm

Just found another reference to the Elsir Vale in the 4e Dungeon Master Guide 2, in the Tiamat's Red Hand monster theme p.122.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Big Mac » Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:10 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:Just found another reference to the Elsir Vale in the 4e Dungeon Master Guide 2, in the Tiamat's Red Hand monster theme p.122.


Awesome. Does it look like it is supposed to be on the same "Points of Light" world as Nentir Vale?

If it is a small enough section, would you be able to quote it, so we can see what the context is?
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby rabindranath72 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:17 am

Big Mac wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:Just found another reference to the Elsir Vale in the 4e Dungeon Master Guide 2, in the Tiamat's Red Hand monster theme p.122.


Awesome. Does it look like it is supposed to be on the same "Points of Light" world as Nentir Vale?

If it is a small enough section, would you be able to quote it, so we can see what the context is?

The text is very brief, but I believe it does refer to the "implicit" PoL setting, as all the generic entries in 4e do:

Although one incarnation of the Red Hand might be linked to a particular race--such as the hobgoblins of Kulkor Zuul who sought to establish a new empire in the smoking ruins of Elsir Vale some years ago--


So it seems it's "in the past" and "in the same setting."

Given that Rich Baker created both the Elsir Vale and the Nentir Vale, I think we can safely assume that they live in the same "generic setting" (which might not say much, but it might be enough for enterprising DMs.)
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Angel Tarragon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:25 am

rabindranath72 wrote:Given that Rich Baker created both the Elsir Vale and the Nentir Vale, I think we can safely assume that they live in the same "generic setting" (which might not say much, but it might be enough for enterprising DMs.)
Big Mac, since I am no longer on Facebook, do you think you might be able to get him to confirm this?
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby rabindranath72 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:07 pm

Angel Tarragon wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:Given that Rich Baker created both the Elsir Vale and the Nentir Vale, I think we can safely assume that they live in the same "generic setting" (which might not say much, but it might be enough for enterprising DMs.)
Big Mac, since I am no longer on Facebook, do you think you might be able to get him to confirm this?

He mentioned creating the Nentir Vale as a sort of "afterthought" when the 4e DMG was going to be finished. Since he previously created the Elsir Vale for 3e it's possible he had the latter in mind when creating the former. With the exception of Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and Eberron which got their own stuff, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the blurb in the DMG 2 refers to a part in the "default" 4e setting.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Angel Tarragon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:45 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:He mentioned creating the Nentir Vale as a sort of "afterthought" when the 4e DMG was going to be finished. Since he previously created the Elsir Vale for 3e it's possible he had the latter in mind when creating the former. With the exception of Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and Eberron which got their own stuff, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the blurb in the DMG 2 refers to a part in the "default" 4e setting.
Interesting. Going to have to look into this further myself, maybe splurge on getting the DMG2.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Big Mac » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:41 am

Angel Tarragon wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:He mentioned creating the Nentir Vale as a sort of "afterthought" when the 4e DMG was going to be finished. Since he previously created the Elsir Vale for 3e it's possible he had the latter in mind when creating the former. With the exception of Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and Eberron which got their own stuff, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the blurb in the DMG 2 refers to a part in the "default" 4e setting.
Interesting. Going to have to look into this further myself, maybe splurge on getting the DMG2.


There is a reply in my Red Hand of Doom in D&D Classics' Nentir Vale category that suggests there is an Elsir Vale/Nerath link in the "Scales of War" Adventure Path. :)
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:23 am

There's a reply like that in this thread, too. Scroll up to see my comment from April 5, 2012.
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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Havard » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:12 am

In another thread, Zeromaru X asked the following:

Zeromaru X wrote:But, this shouldn't go in the Nentir Vale forum? I mean, we know that the Elsir Vale is part of the Nerath setting.


Has further information come to light in this discussion?

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Re: Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

Postby Zeromaru X » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:32 pm

The Scales of War adventure path starts in the Elsir Vale, that was part of the Nerath empire, and then you can explore the rest of the Nerath world and outer planes.
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