Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale

[Havard]

The Scales of War adventure path starts in the Elsir Vale, that was part of the Nerath empire, and then you can explore the rest of the Nerath world and outer planes.

This is true. On the other hand it also seems that:
1. There is no official placement of the Elsir Vale in the Nerath Setting (map).
2. The Elsir Vale debuted in Red Hand of Doom which predates 4E and the Nentir Vale/Nerath Setting.
3. The map of the Elsir Vale is actually a copy of the Shar region from the Forgotten Realms:


(Click to enlarge)

To me it seems that the Elsir Vale falls into the same category as the Keep on the Borderlands, Tomb of Horrors, The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, White Plume Mountain etc: That is, while they exist in the Nentir Vale/Nerath Setting, they do not belong exclusively to the Nentir Vale Setting.

When this thread was started, Knightfall asked if the Elsir Vale could be incorporated into the Nentir Vale Setting and I think this should be fairly easy given that there is already a precedence for this in the Scales of War Adventure Path as you point out.

-Havard

[Zeromaru X]

The Scales of War adventure path starts in the Elsir Vale, that was part of the Nerath empire, and then you can explore the rest of the Nerath world and outer planes.

This is true. On the other hand it also seems that:
1. There is no official placement of the Elsir Vale in the Nerath Setting (map).

Well, according to the adventure "Alliance at Nefelus" (published in Dungeon Magazine 165 and part of the Scales of War series), the Elsir Vale lies somewhere to the south of the Nentir Vale. But you have a point with your other arguments.

[Havard]

Well, according to the adventure "Alliance at Nefelus" (published in Dungeon Magazine 165 and part of the Scales of War series), the Elsir Vale lies somewhere to the south of the Nentir Vale. But you have a point with your other arguments.

Yeah, for the record I am not against incorporating the Elsir Vale into the Nentir Vale, especially as there is already a presedence for that.

-Havard

[Big Mac]

I think we are actually getting off of Knighfall's topic (working out how to incorporate Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale) by bringing in the question of if the two settings are actually the same setting.

I think there is enough evidence that Elsir Vale has been retconned into Nentir Vale and Nerath's past to pull all Elsir Vale topics into the Nentir Vale forum (and give them "[Elsir Vale]" forum tags. The fact that Nentir Vale didn't exist when Elsir Vale is not something I see invalidating the ability to retcon it in, as other D&D areas have been retconned into settings later*.

* = Early D&D adventures have been retconned into Mystara and/or Greyhawk...or both. Kara-Tur has been retconed into Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms have been retconned into both Spelljammer and Planescape.

[Big Mac]

Lets move this discussion to The Kippin' Griffin: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum as this is forum business and not an actual discussion of Elsir Vale and Nentir Vale.

[Havard]

Let's get back to the original topic then.

Where would you place the Elsir Vale on the Nerath Map?

-Havard

[Zeromaru X]

Red Hand of Doom's map (3e) has this place named the Golden Plains, in the eastern portion of the map. So, taking this location and the tower of Thiradith stuff, that seems to be located in the mountains of the northern frontier of Nerath (meaning someplace between Sarthel, the Barony of Therund, and the Trollhaunt Barrens), I guess we can pinpoint the Golden Plains (and the Elsir Vale) west to the Golden Savannah in the Nera region. You can check the Nerath map for reference.

It could be easy to connect the Giantshield mountains and the Marth Forest in the Red Hand of Doom's map with the mountains north to Nera city, and the forest to the south of the city, depicted in Nerath's map. In fact, we can also place the tower of Thiradith in those mountains as well.

[Havard]

Red Hand of Doom's map (3e) has this place named the Golden Plains, in the eastern portion of the map. So, taking this location and the tower of Thiradith stuff, that seems to be located in the mountains of the northern frontier of Nerath (meaning someplace between Sarthel, the Barony of Therund, and the Trollhaunt Barrens), I guess we can pinpoint the Golden Plains (and the Elsir Vale) west to the Golden Savannah in the Nera region. You can check the Nerath map for reference.

It could be easy to connect the Giantshield mountains and the Marth Forest in the Red Hand of Doom's map with the mountains north to Nera city, and the forest to the south of the city, depicted in Nerath's map. In fact, we can also place the tower of Thiradith in those mountains as well.

Thanks!
I agree, that makes alot of sense to place it there. It is almost surprising that they didn't use the term Golden Plains instead of Savannah.

-Havard

[solabusca]

Oddly enough, I took the time to try and create a map for my own group. I used a slice of the Conquest of Nerath map as a base layer, added the Nentir Vale map to it to establish scale, and then resized my Elsir Vale map to the same scale and tried to insert it in the Golden Savannah region.

It ... looks like the map was designed to work with it.

Seriously, the mountains to the north and south of the Golden Savannah fit PERFECTLY into the map of the Elsir Vale; the Golden Plains and the Golden Savannah also seem to match up perfectly. Hell, even the Marth Forest fits perfectly.

I'm pretty damned happy about it.

Alternate version without hexes, for those that would like it

[Zeromaru X]

Thanks for sharing this map. Can I use it in a future Gazetteer about the lands beyond Nentir Vale?

[solabusca]

Absolutely! For the record, the hexes on the first map are standard 24 mile hexes.

[Tim Baker]

Oddly enough, I took the time to try and create a map for my own group. I used a slice of the Conquest of Nerath map as a base layer, added the Nentir Vale map to it to establish scale, and then resized my Elsir Vale map to the same scale and tried to insert it in the Golden Savannah region.

It ... looks like the map was designed to work with it.

Very nice.

[Big Mac]

Oddly enough, I took the time to try and create a map for my own group. I used a slice of the Conquest of Nerath map as a base layer, added the Nentir Vale map to it to establish scale, and then resized my Elsir Vale map to the same scale and tried to insert it in the Golden Savannah region.

It ... looks like the map was designed to work with it.

Seriously, the mountains to the north and south of the Golden Savannah fit PERFECTLY into the map of the Elsir Vale; the Golden Plains and the Golden Savannah also seem to match up perfectly. Hell, even the Marth Forest fits perfectly.

I'm pretty damned happy about it.

Alternate version without hexes, for those that would like it

Those are awesome maps.

I remember a time - a few years back - when I could cast a "Summon Dave L" spell to a topic like this, and he would come along, like a map making pixie and build a new hex map overnight (and repair some shoes in his spare time ).

I don't think he has time to do that any more, but I might ping him and show him your work, as I think he will enjoy your craftsmanship.

[solabusca]

I truly hope Dave L is successfully summoned!

.j.

[Dave L]

Evening all.

Unfortunately I can't seem to access the original map with the hex grid (hex maps are awesome!), but the alternate without hexes looks a real work of art. Much better than I ever mananged ...

[Zeromaru X]

Here it is, good Sir. I downloaded it, since I'm planning to do a gazetteer about the lands outside of the Nentir Vale at some point this year.

http://imgur.com/mvwUDZ6

[Dave L]

Thank you.

An interesting hex grid, more understated than I the one I used.

Much more artistic.

[solabusca]

I'm glad that it was saved! I still have my copies, but I haven't done much more work on them - I'm currently playing around with Hexographer, but would like to see other people try and bring it together with some more style.

Glad to hear that you're doing more gazetteer work, Zenomaru X!

[Knightfall]

Here it is, good Sir. I downloaded it, since I'm planning to do a gazetteer about the lands outside of the Nentir Vale at some point this year.

http://imgur.com/mvwUDZ6

Hmm, I'm going to have to "Hexographerize" that map at some point.