[Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

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[Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Havard » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:40 pm

The new Dungeons & Dragons movie, Book of Vile Darkness is set in the Kingdoms of Karkoth. Does this have anything to do with the Nentir Vale? Or is it just yet another setting?

I found no references in this movie to Izmir/Ismer or any other links to the previous movies.

The movie was very much 4th edition though with central characters like a Shadar-Kai and a Goliath.

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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:37 pm

Yes, a quick begoogling confirmed it's part of the same 4th edition Nerath setting that Nentir Vale is set in. There looks like there are several articles about it behind the paywall, but Obsidian Portal has the basics: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/ ... is/karkoth
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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Angel Tarragon » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:52 pm

Hmm...the Karkothi use the dead to do their bidding, seems Jakandor-esque.
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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Havard » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:46 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Yes, a quick begoogling confirmed it's part of the same 4th edition Nerath setting that Nentir Vale is set in. There looks like there are several articles about it behind the paywall, but Obsidian Portal has the basics: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/ ... is/karkoth


Much obliged Rip!

I am glad they went with a published setting rather than making up yet another half-assed world.*

On the other hand this further segments the Nentir Vale Boar game map, which I am not so much a fan of.

*=Not meant as a slight against the previous movie setting. I would actually have preferred some kind of continuity between the three movies.

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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:15 pm

Havard wrote:On the other hand this further segments the Nentir Vale Boar game map, which I am not so much a fan of.


I'm not sure what you mean. It looks exactly like the board game map, but with roads and settlements added.

Incidentally, I thought this article on the Broken Lands to the south was interesting. They sound very much like Mystara's Broken Lands.

And as much for my reference as anything else, as long as I'm googling stuff, here's a timeline of the Nentir Vale/Nerath setting.

For some reason I'm thinking that the Kingdoms of Karkoth would fit pretty well east of the Esterhold region of Mystara, perhaps prior to Alphatian landfall. The Gulf of Kar is a fairly close match for the Bay of Thorin, and Esterhold would be Tarsembor.
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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Havard » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:03 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:On the other hand this further segments the Nentir Vale Boar game map, which I am not so much a fan of.


I'm not sure what you mean. It looks exactly like the board game map, but with roads and settlements added.



Sorry, I was unclear. I just meant that I don't like the Board Game Map. When it first came out, we could have just disregarded it as a board game thing with nothing to do with D&D, but as more and more articles and now the movie referring to the same map, that ship seems to have sailed.


Incidentally, I thought this article on the Broken Lands to the south was interesting. They sound very much like Mystara's Broken Lands.


Not sure what to think of that, but definitely interesting. :)

And as much for my reference as anything else, as long as I'm googling stuff, here's a timeline of the Nentir Vale/Nerath setting.


:cool:

For some reason I'm thinking that the Kingdoms of Karkoth would fit pretty well east of the Esterhold region of Mystara, perhaps prior to Alphatian landfall. The Gulf of Kar is a fairly close match for the Bay of Thorin, and Esterhold would be Tarsembor.


Hehe, you know how to turn the direction into something for me to find interesting! :)

As you may remember I did suggest to have the previous movies set in Pre-Landfall Belissaria. Having the events of this one take place nearby would work well with that. Of course, the lack of interest in the D&D movies from the community in general, I am not sure how much more I would do with it :)


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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:42 am

I think the initial inspiration was that Kargoth was founded by a barbarian culture known as the Kars, and that made me think of Havard's take on the Kurgans, which made me think of setting the kingdoms in western Skothar shortly after the fall of Blackmoor. The fact that the coastline is roughly analogous was just a bonus.

Anyway, the history of Kargoth might be edited to look like this:

The realm of Kurgoth arose after the Great Rain of Fire when the Kurgans, a barbaric human tribe from eastern Skothar, ventured west over the bitter heights of the Ododharaun Mountains and descended upon the land of Tarsh. Laying waste to everything in their path, the Kurgans next marched against the decadent wizard-realm of Valon along the southern shore of what is now called the Bay of Thorin and toppled that decrepit realm. The Kurgan warchiefs then hurled their strength against Esterhold, but here they were finally checked; despite their ferocity, the natives of that land stood firm, and the Kurgans' invasion ground to a halt.

The Kurgans turned their attention to oppressing and settling the lands they had overrun, in particular the rich lands of Valon. Each of the great Kurgan tribes settled in a different part of the region. Among the ruins of Valon, the Kurgans discovered dark and powerful arcane secrets. Hungry for power and impatient to subjugate their fellows, the Kurgan chieftains plundered the Avalonian vaults and interrogated the surviving Avalonian wizards, learning how to summon powerful patrons and strike sinister pacts to achieve arcane might. The Kurgans now added the reckless pursuit of magical power to their already barbaric and warlike disposition. Thus the Kurgothi Throneholds, a realm of warlocks and warriors, took shape.

The kings of Kurgoth grew hungry for a wider dominion and new conquests. They settled the marches to the south, conquered the divided citadels and towns of Blisterforge, established outposts in the vale of Slaughtergarde and the Icebound Wastes, and drowned the land of Tarsh with terrible magic when it became a threat. Then, after a thousand years of conquest, the Kurgothi Empire met its match in a new power from over the sea: the Empire of Alphatia. The Kurgothi and Alphatians clashed in repeated wars over the next sixty years until the power of Kurgoth was broken and its conquests stripped away.

The Kurgothi, humiliated and bitter, retreated to their throneholds, the former realm of Valon. During the long generations of Alphatia’s dominance, the Kurgothi domains feuded, schemed, and fought with each other, jockeying for mastery over their shrunken empire. In time Alphatia’s hold on northern Skothar began to weaken, and Kurgothi ambitions stirred again. Renewed Kurgothi agitation led to incursions of monsters and bitter rebellions throughout Skothar, further weakening the Alphatian empire. The fall of Alphatia in 1010 AC led to war, plague, and anarchy, but the Kurgothi people weathered these troubles better than other tribes and soon reemerged as the major power in the east.

Kurgoth had always been a disunified empire, but following the fall of Alphatia a new power has arisen among this warlike people: the cult of Thanatos. Although no single king of Kurgoth’s tribes could ever force obedience from his peers, the priests of Thanatos have brought the Kurgothi together with a unifying purpose: First, reclaim the lands once held by ancient Kurgoth; then sweep away the decrepit remnants of hated Alphatia and Minaea.
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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Big Mac » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:36 am

Havard wrote:The new Dungeons & Dragons movie, Book of Vile Darkness is set in the Kingdoms of Karkoth. Does this have anything to do with the Nentir Vale? Or is it just yet another setting?


Nice find. Do you have sources for this?

ripvanwormer wrote:Yes, a quick begoogling confirmed it's part of the same 4th edition Nerath setting that Nentir Vale is set in. There looks like there are several articles about it behind the paywall, but Obsidian Portal has the basics: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/ ... is/karkoth


There is also a Nentir Vale wiki at WotC's community that has an article called Former Lands of Karkoth - the Frozen East

Havard wrote:I don't like the Board Game Map. When it first came out, we could have just disregarded it as a board game thing with nothing to do with D&D, but as more and more articles and now the movie referring to the same map, that ship seems to have sailed.


I quite like the board game map. And if the series of Gazetteers, that were going to cover the regions of Nerath, had not been cancelled, we would have had an awesome campaign setting to go with that map.

But if you don't like the map, I don't see why you can't ignore it for your personal Nentir Vale campaign.

I'm sure that Nerath could even be made to fit into undocumented regions of many other campaign settings.

There is also no reason why people can not raid the 4th Edition products that include locations that existed before 4e and retcon them back into the campaign settings they were originally used in.
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Re: Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Havard » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:02 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:I think the initial inspiration was that Kargoth was founded by a barbarian culture known as the Kars, and that made me think of Havard's take on the Kurgans, which made me think of setting the kingdoms in western Skothar shortly after the fall of Blackmoor. The fact that the coastline is roughly analogous was just a bonus.

Anyway, the history of Kargoth might be edited to look like this:

The realm of Kurgoth arose after the Great Rain of Fire when the Kurgans, a barbaric human tribe from eastern Skothar, ventured west over the bitter heights of the Ododharaun Mountains and descended upon the land of Tarsh. Laying waste to everything in their path, the Kurgans next marched against the decadent wizard-realm of Valon along the southern shore of what is now called the Bay of Thorin and toppled that decrepit realm. The Kurgan warchiefs then hurled their strength against Esterhold, but here they were finally checked; despite their ferocity, the natives of that land stood firm, and the Kurgans' invasion ground to a halt.

The Kurgans turned their attention to oppressing and settling the lands they had overrun, in particular the rich lands of Valon. Each of the great Kurgan tribes settled in a different part of the region. Among the ruins of Valon, the Kurgans discovered dark and powerful arcane secrets. Hungry for power and impatient to subjugate their fellows, the Kurgan chieftains plundered the Avalonian vaults and interrogated the surviving Avalonian wizards, learning how to summon powerful patrons and strike sinister pacts to achieve arcane might. The Kurgans now added the reckless pursuit of magical power to their already barbaric and warlike disposition. Thus the Kurgothi Throneholds, a realm of warlocks and warriors, took shape.

The kings of Kurgoth grew hungry for a wider dominion and new conquests. They settled the marches to the south, conquered the divided citadels and towns of Blisterforge, established outposts in the vale of Slaughtergarde and the Icebound Wastes, and drowned the land of Tarsh with terrible magic when it became a threat. Then, after a thousand years of conquest, the Kurgothi Empire met its match in a new power from over the sea: the Empire of Alphatia. The Kurgothi and Alphatians clashed in repeated wars over the next sixty years until the power of Kurgoth was broken and its conquests stripped away.

The Kurgothi, humiliated and bitter, retreated to their throneholds, the former realm of Valon. During the long generations of Alphatia’s dominance, the Kurgothi domains feuded, schemed, and fought with each other, jockeying for mastery over their shrunken empire. In time Alphatia’s hold on northern Skothar began to weaken, and Kurgothi ambitions stirred again. Renewed Kurgothi agitation led to incursions of monsters and bitter rebellions throughout Skothar, further weakening the Alphatian empire. The fall of Alphatia in 1010 AC led to war, plague, and anarchy, but the Kurgothi people weathered these troubles better than other tribes and soon reemerged as the major power in the east.

Kurgoth had always been a disunified empire, but following the fall of Alphatia a new power has arisen among this warlike people: the cult of Thanatos. Although no single king of Kurgoth’s tribes could ever force obedience from his peers, the priests of Thanatos have brought the Kurgothi together with a unifying purpose: First, reclaim the lands once held by ancient Kurgoth; then sweep away the decrepit remnants of hated Alphatia and Minaea.



Sorry I never responded to this, but this is a great adaptation to Mystara for those who would want to incorporate it. :)

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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Havard » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:30 pm

I have been trying to find a way to connect Dungeons & Dragons 3: Boook of Vile Darkness to the previous movies, but it proves to be incredibly difficult. I can see several reasons for them wanting and perhaps also needing to distance themselves from the the first and second movies, but personally I am a bit disappointed that we could not have seen Bruce Payne's Damodar show up for a third time, or perhaps just Klaxx the Malign, the lich from the second movie since he fits even better with the concept in Book of Vile Darkness. I think having Klaxx replace Shathrax would have been a really cool gesture towards continuity geeks like me. It could still be set in a new world since Klaxx could easily have travelled between worlds or he could even have been banished from Izmer's world by the Council of Wizards, allowing for a truly happy ending of that world.

I recently bought the Conquest of Nerath Boardgame and it has the following information on Karkoth:

Conquest of Nerath Board Game (2011) wrote:"War has come to the Dungeons & Dragons world! In the north, the undead legions of the Dark Empire of Karkoth march against the fragile League of Nerath, determined to sweep away the human kingdoms forever. To the south, the infernal Iron Circle launches its own goblin hordes in a campaign of conquest against the elves and corsairs of Vailin. From the snowy expanse of the Winterbole Forest to the sun-warmed coasts of ancient Vailin, four great powers struggle for survival."


The movie shows the following races, classes and organizations: Mind Flayer (Not really, since the budget would not allow it), Shifter,Goliath, Red Dragon, Shadar-Kai, Warlock, Vermin Lord, Knights of the New Sun (Pelor).

We also have the following timeline:


Has anyone tried to work these things into the Nerath setting? Zeromaru? :)

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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Zeromaru X » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:09 pm

Well, Karkoth is too far away from my preferred game region (Nentir Vale and nearby regions—the farthest place my players have traveled was Sarthel), that I've never touched that region in my campaign. I guess, at some point I will do it. I want to play an Abyssal Plague campaign, and canonically one of the vials of Voidharrow is in Karkoth... and Tharizdun's temple of Elemental Evil is there as well. Or I can make the karkhoti invade Nentir Vale, (I can re-skin Thay from the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, just adding barbarians to the legions of karkhoti necromancers... the Crimson Wizards of Karkoth :P ).

As for the stuff from the movie, it was officially part of the Nerath setting indeed. The 4e Book of Vile Darkness sourcebook has the organizations, NPCs and the Book artifact from the movie, as well as an adventure that helps you adapt the movie events to your campaign.
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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:07 am

Havard wrote:I have been trying to find a way to connect Dungeons & Dragons 3: Boook of Vile Darkness to the previous movies, but it proves to be incredibly difficult. I can see several reasons for them wanting and perhaps also needing to distance themselves from the the first and second movies, but personally I am a bit disappointed that we could not have seen Bruce Payne's Damodar show up for a third time, or perhaps just Klaxx the Malign, the lich from the second movie since he fits even better with the concept in Book of Vile Darkness. I think having Klaxx replace Shathrax would have been a really cool gesture towards continuity geeks like me.


Suggestion: Klaxx the Malign was an apprentice of Nhagruul the Foul, and Klaxx was the first to be corrupted by reading the Book of Vile Darkness. As a lich, he was the most powerful of the kings of Karkoth for 1200 years, until the Knights of the New Sun cast him down. Fleeing from the swords and holy fire of the knights, Klaxx and the other necromancer-kings disassembled the Book and bribed three greedy souls to hide the pieces until they could be retrieved.

800 years later, Klaxx the Malign, now calling himself Shathrax the Mind Flayer, has returned, determined to wipe out the Knights of the New Sun, reassemble his old master's Book, and rule the land once more.
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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Havard » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:32 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:Well, Karkoth is too far away from my preferred game region (Nentir Vale and nearby regions—the farthest place my players have traveled was Sarthel), that I've never touched that region in my campaign. I guess, at some point I will do it. I want to play an Abyssal Plague campaign, and canonically one of the vials of Voidharrow is in Karkoth... and Tharizdun's temple of Elemental Evil is there as well. Or I can make the karkhoti invade Nentir Vale, (I can re-skin Thay from the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, just adding barbarians to the legions of karkhoti necromancers... the Crimson Wizards of Karkoth :P ).

As for the stuff from the movie, it was officially part of the Nerath setting indeed. The 4e Book of Vile Darkness sourcebook has the organizations, NPCs and the Book artifact from the movie, as well as an adventure that helps you adapt the movie events to your campaign.


I just realized I only onw the 3E version of the Book of Vile Darkness. From what I gather it is very different than the 4E version, even though a few things from the 3E book also appear to have snuck into the movie (possibly via the 4E book).

Interesting about the connections between the Abyssal Plague and Karkoth!

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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Zeromaru X » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:44 am

Havard wrote:Interesting about the connections between the Abyssal Plague and Karkoth!

-Havard


Sadly, there is not much about it, beyond that some member of the Order of Vigilance went to Karkoth with a vial of Voidharrow. But, well, GMing freedoms :twisted:
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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Big Mac » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:04 am

Is there a (spoiler-full) breakdown of the plot of this movie, that could be used to extract all the canon facts that are included in it?
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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Zeromaru X » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:09 pm

Mmm-... I'll search, but I guess I have to re-watch it to do that. xD
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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby ripvanwormer » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:01 pm

I saw it for the first time a few days ago. It's difficult to reconcile the movie version of Karkoth with the pen and paper version. The movie Karkoth was ruled by necromancers 800 years ago and has been free ever since. The pen and paper Karkoth has been continuously ruled by necromancers. Maybe the movie takes place in the distant past or centuries in the future. I wouldn't consider anything in it to be a "canon fact" for the Nerath setting, personally.
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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby Zeromaru X » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:34 am

Well, Karkoth in the Nerath setting was founded like 500 years before the foundation of Nerath. Then it was conquered by Nerath, and now that Nerath fell 150 years ago, Karkoth had rebuilt itselft... so, perhaps this movie happens when Nerath was "whole and strong"?
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Re: [Karkoth] Book of Vile Darkness Movie Setting

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:19 pm

That makes sense. Maybe the Order of the New Sun was sponsored by Nerath to weaken Karkoth and make it easier to conquer.
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