Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Feel the grit between your teeth, taste the blood in your mouth and smell the laurels of success.

Moderator: night_druid

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Sun May 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Since there are Kalamar fans here I thought I'd point out something that Jolly Blackburn is working on. NOTE: Although Jolly is working on this it is TOTALLY Unofficial and might be superseded by later KoK publications.

Over at the K&Co forums Jolly posted a map of something he is working on for one of his personal campaigns. He calls it "The Unknown Lands" which is what is North of the KoK maps;
http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthre ... nown-lands

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 23172
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Big Mac » Tue May 21, 2013 8:47 pm

Thanks Greylond.

I look forward to seeing more of this - official or not.

I see over there that GeorgeFields said the red line is 52º north. I suppose that means that someone could work out how much of Tellene remains unmapped.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Tue May 21, 2013 9:53 pm

Well one bit of data that somehow I missed the first couple of times I read it is that Tellene is a warmer climate than Earth. In other threads over at K&Co Jolly has said that Frandor's keep has a climate approx of that as Boulder, CO, so that means that the Krond Heights is more like 40 deg North climate even though on Tellene it is at ~48.5 N. So a baseline of ~8 or 9 deg difference for climate, not counting wind/weather patterns. And there's some interesting weather data spread around the different Ed books. :)

Also, Jolly has shown globes before that he's done in Photoshop, someone needs to take the KoK map and "Globe" it. :)

User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
Posts: 6165
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by night_druid » Tue May 21, 2013 10:20 pm

That northern bay should be frigg'n cold, that's for certain. ;) I assume most of the lands in the NE are pretty danged cold; probably something not unlike Siberia

Also, have they ever said how big Kalamar's planet is? I assume relatively Earth-sized, but even a few hundred miles variance in radius can dramatically alter total surface area.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green

User avatar
George.Fields
Hobgoblin
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:04 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by George.Fields » Tue May 21, 2013 10:33 pm

I calculated it out and have it in a notebook at home. I'll post the diameter later tonight.

User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
Posts: 6165
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by night_druid » Tue May 21, 2013 10:48 pm

One thing we do know is that Grevans inhabit at least part of the NE area. I imagine the area is very steppe-like, home to tribes of proto-Vikings & proto-Monguals/Huns.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 23172
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Big Mac » Tue May 21, 2013 11:29 pm

Greylond wrote:Well one bit of data that somehow I missed the first couple of times I read it is that Tellene is a warmer climate than Earth. In other threads over at K&Co Jolly has said that Frandor's keep has a climate approx of that as Boulder, CO, so that means that the Krond Heights is more like 40 deg North climate even though on Tellene it is at ~48.5 N. So a baseline of ~8 or 9 deg difference for climate, not counting wind/weather patterns. And there's some interesting weather data spread around the different Ed books. :)
Hmm. I wonder if the entire planet is supposed to be warmer, or just the area in the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting. I know that Tellene is used both for the area in the Kingdoms of Kalamar book and sometimes for the entire planet. If I understood correctly, the people living there think that their area is the entire world, or somesuch.

If we don't know what the geography of the undocumented parts of the KoK planet do, then maybe they could have some sort of jet-stream stuff going on that makes part of the planet hotter or colder than the rest of the world.
Greylond wrote:Also, Jolly has shown globes before that he's done in Photoshop, someone needs to take the KoK map and "Globe" it. :)
We have a 3D mapping expert, who mostly hangs out in the Spelljammer forum, called Silverblade. He has made a few globes. He told me that people need to make a 1:2 ratio rectangle to get it to wrap properly onto a sphere.
night_druid wrote:That northern bay should be frigg'n cold, that's for certain. ;) I assume most of the lands in the NE are pretty danged cold; probably something not unlike Siberia
Couldn't that also be dependent on water currents? If warm water currents flowed up in that direction, it could make that area less cold than it "should" be. Perhaps Jolly will provide some details in his write up.
night_druid wrote:Also, have they ever said how big Kalamar's planet is? I assume relatively Earth-sized, but even a few hundred miles variance in radius can dramatically alter total surface area.
Well, there is surface area. And there is also the amount of surface area that is not covered in water. So if you increased or decreased the percentage of water on Kalamar, that might make a bigger difference than a few hundred miles of radius.
George.Fields wrote:I calculated it out and have it in a notebook at home. I'll post the diameter later tonight.
I look forward to seeing your calculations. :)
night_druid wrote:One thing we do know is that Grevans inhabit at least part of the NE area. I imagine the area is very steppe-like, home to tribes of proto-Vikings & proto-Monguals/Huns.
What is that based on? Is that your guess on the sort of society that could survive in that sort of environment/weather? Or is that based on hints of "outsiders" mentioned in the regions on the edge of the area described in canon sources? :?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
Posts: 6165
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by night_druid » Wed May 22, 2013 12:01 am

Fhokki (proto-Vikings) live around that long northern bay, we know that. And in another thread, Jolly has a map of Grevean incursion into Kalamar, basically at the SE corner of that same northern bay. That second map only shows a small part of the area around the bay, and nothing of the Unknown Lands. Grevean territory extends right up to the border, so they have to have territory further up north. I sorta view the Greveans as having a semi-mongul/hun culture, which seems to be their inspiration.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Wed May 22, 2013 12:29 am

Big Mac wrote:
Hmm. I wonder if the entire planet is supposed to be warmer, or just the area in the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting. I know that Tellene is used both for the area in the Kingdoms of Kalamar book and sometimes for the entire planet. If I understood correctly, the people living there think that their area is the entire world, or somesuch.
My impression was the entire planet is warmer. Just a WAG on my part but I'd say it is prob closer to the sun.
If we don't know what the geography of the undocumented parts of the KoK planet do, then maybe they could have some sort of jet-stream stuff going on that makes part of the planet hotter or colder than the rest of the world.
One hint is that Elves live somewhere "Far Off." They were the ones that taught the Reanaarians to build ships. :)
Couldn't that also be dependent on water currents? If warm water currents flowed up in that direction, it could make that area less cold than it "should" be. Perhaps Jolly will provide some details in his write up.
Yea, I hope so too. :)

Well, there is surface area. And there is also the amount of surface area that is not covered in water. So if you increased or decreased the percentage of water on Kalamar, that might make a bigger difference than a few hundred miles of radius.
George.Fields wrote:I calculated it out and have it in a notebook at home. I'll post the diameter later tonight.
I look forward to seeing your calculations. :)
Well, we know the longitude and lattitude from the lines in the Atlas, should be able to figure out diameter from that. :)
night_druid wrote:One thing we do know is that Grevans inhabit at least part of the NE area. I imagine the area is very steppe-like, home to tribes of proto-Vikings & proto-Monguals/Huns.
What is that based on? Is that your guess on the sort of society that could survive in that sort of environment/weather? Or is that based on hints of "outsiders" mentioned in the regions on the edge of the area described in canon sources? :?
HackMaster Hacklopedia of Beasts has maps that are shaded with areas where monsters are most common. For example see the sample page for the Sturm Wolf;
http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/sturm_wolf.pdf

User avatar
George.Fields
Hobgoblin
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:04 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by George.Fields » Wed May 22, 2013 1:05 am

Using the atlas, the diameter pole-to-pole is about 5,000 miles. This assumes a perfect to near-perfect sphere and using the longitudinal lines as the basis.

Now that I've posted this, I'm sure I could go back and find an error in my math. :P

User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
Posts: 6165
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by night_druid » Wed May 22, 2013 1:47 am

5000 mile diameter? Good grief, Kalamar is set on one tiny world. That's not too much bigger than Mars. :p
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Wed May 22, 2013 2:35 am

For Earth distance between Latitude lines is constant no matter what Longitude, is about 69 miles per degree. Figure the distance between Tellene Latitude lines and you can get a general idea of how big it is compared to Earth.

User avatar
George.Fields
Hobgoblin
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:04 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by George.Fields » Wed May 22, 2013 3:15 am

The atlas is 25 miles /inch.
1° measures 1.75" which translates to 1° being 43.75 miles.
Times 360° equals a circumference of 15750.
Divided by pi is 5013.38 miles diameter.

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Wed May 22, 2013 3:58 am

So, yea, Tellene is smaller than Earth. If gravitational pull is about the same that means that Tellene is a lot denser. :)

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 23172
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Big Mac » Wed May 22, 2013 12:12 pm

night_druid wrote:Fhokki (proto-Vikings) live around that long northern bay, we know that. And in another thread, Jolly has a map of Grevean incursion into Kalamar, basically at the SE corner of that same northern bay. That second map only shows a small part of the area around the bay, and nothing of the Unknown Lands. Grevean territory extends right up to the border, so they have to have territory further up north. I sorta view the Greveans as having a semi-mongul/hun culture, which seems to be their inspiration.
Thanks.

Do you have a link to that other thread?
Greylond wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Hmm. I wonder if the entire planet is supposed to be warmer, or just the area in the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting. I know that Tellene is used both for the area in the Kingdoms of Kalamar book and sometimes for the entire planet. If I understood correctly, the people living there think that their area is the entire world, or somesuch.
My impression was the entire planet is warmer. Just a WAG on my part but I'd say it is prob closer to the sun.
Tellene could possibly be closer to the sun than the real-world is. But then again, you could make a planet warmer by making the sun hotter.

Putting a world closer to a sun would generally make it orbit faster (and have a shorter year), but then again Kingdoms of Kalamar is a fantasy setting, rather than a science fiction setting, so scientific principles might not necessarily apply the same way.
George.Fields wrote:The atlas is 25 miles /inch.
1° measures 1.75" which translates to 1° being 43.75 miles.
Times 360° equals a circumference of 15750.
Divided by pi is 5013.38 miles diameter.
Thanks George. So how much elbow room does Jolly Blackburn have at the top edge of his map, before he gets to the pole?

From what he has done so far, it looks like Tellene is going to have a polar sea (probably covered over with an ice pack) rather than a landmass.
Greylond wrote:So, yea, Tellene is smaller than Earth. If gravitational pull is about the same that means that Tellene is a lot denser. :)
True. Or maybe gravity for Kingdoms of Kalamar is a fantasy thing and does not follow scientific principles. In Spelljammer, for example, most celestial bodies have a gravity of 1G.

But if Kingdoms of Kalamar follows more scientific rules, I'm sure it would be possible to give the world a more massive core than the real world has.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
George.Fields
Hobgoblin
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:04 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by George.Fields » Wed May 22, 2013 12:26 pm

Big Mac wrote:Thanks George. So how much elbow room does Jolly Blackburn have at the top edge of his map, before he gets to the pole?
From what he has done so far, it looks like Tellene is going to have a polar sea (probably covered over with an ice pack) rather than a landmass.
I'll have to take some measurements and do the math. I won't have time tonight, but I'll get to it soon.
Big Mac wrote:
Greylond wrote:So, yea, Tellene is smaller than Earth. If gravitational pull is about the same that means that Tellene is a lot denser. :)
True. Or maybe gravity for Kingdoms of Kalamar is a fantasy thing and does not follow scientific principles. In Spelljammer, for example, most celestial bodies have a gravity of 1G.

But if Kingdoms of Kalamar follows more scientific rules, I'm sure it would be possible to give the world a more massive core than the real world has.
With the low magic of the setting, I'd probably take the scientific approach and assume the core is denser.

User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
Posts: 6165
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by night_druid » Wed May 22, 2013 12:43 pm

I don't think Tellene needs to be significantly closer to its sun to be warmer than Earth; a slightly different change in land mass position and atmospheric conditions would result in a warmer planet. A warmer Tellene probably means any arctic ice caps will be seasonal, disappearing completely during summer months.

At 5,000 miles in diameter, Tellene basically has a little over a quarter of Earth's surface area. So not much room for additional continents. I'm guessing the continent Kalamar is located on is the primary continent, with maybe an area for Oriental Adventures and maybe a large elvish island.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Wed May 22, 2013 12:47 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tellene could possibly be closer to the sun than the real-world is. But then again, you could make a planet warmer by making the sun hotter.

Putting a world closer to a sun would generally make it orbit faster (and have a shorter year), but then again Kingdoms of Kalamar is a fantasy setting, rather than a science fiction setting, so scientific principles might not necessarily apply the same way.
Tellene's year is 364 days, which is 1.24218967 shorter than Earth, so it appears that it is closer to its sun. ;)

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 23172
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Big Mac » Wed May 22, 2013 10:32 pm

George.Fields wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Thanks George. So how much elbow room does Jolly Blackburn have at the top edge of his map, before he gets to the pole?
From what he has done so far, it looks like Tellene is going to have a polar sea (probably covered over with an ice pack) rather than a landmass.
I'll have to take some measurements and do the math. I won't have time tonight, but I'll get to it soon.
Looks like you found the time: :cool:
George Fields on the Facebook group for Kingdoms of Kalamar wrote:Image

A skeleton of the planet. The equator and prime meridian are bold while the are detailed by the atlas is in red. the upper area is the size of the Unknown Lands form Jolly's unofficial expansion.
George.Fields wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Greylond wrote:So, yea, Tellene is smaller than Earth. If gravitational pull is about the same that means that Tellene is a lot denser. :)
True. Or maybe gravity for Kingdoms of Kalamar is a fantasy thing and does not follow scientific principles. In Spelljammer, for example, most celestial bodies have a gravity of 1G.

But if Kingdoms of Kalamar follows more scientific rules, I'm sure it would be possible to give the world a more massive core than the real world has.
With the low magic of the setting, I'd probably take the scientific approach and assume the core is denser.
That certainly works OK. I'd be going with the SJ logic, so that I don't have to work out the density of Tellene.
night_druid wrote:I don't think Tellene needs to be significantly closer to its sun to be warmer than Earth; a slightly different change in land mass position and atmospheric conditions would result in a warmer planet. A warmer Tellene probably means any arctic ice caps will be seasonal, disappearing completely during summer months.
The fact that Venus is hotter than Mercury, means that some sort of greenhouse effect could have a larger effect on Tellene's temperature than the distance from it's sun.
night_druid wrote:At 5,000 miles in diameter, Tellene basically has a little over a quarter of Earth's surface area. So not much room for additional continents. I'm guessing the continent Kalamar is located on is the primary continent, with maybe an area for Oriental Adventures and maybe a large elvish island.
I've seen people mention this elvish island before, but how much do we have to go on?
Greylond wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Tellene could possibly be closer to the sun than the real-world is. But then again, you could make a planet warmer by making the sun hotter.

Putting a world closer to a sun would generally make it orbit faster (and have a shorter year), but then again Kingdoms of Kalamar is a fantasy setting, rather than a science fiction setting, so scientific principles might not necessarily apply the same way.
Tellene's year is 364 days, which is 1.24218967 shorter than Earth, so it appears that it is closer to its sun. ;)
:lol: Slightly pedantic, but very very true! ;)
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Wed May 22, 2013 10:34 pm

Big Mac wrote: :lol: Slightly pedantic, but very very true! ;)
I work a corporate IT Support Help Desk in the USA. "Pedantic" isn't an insult, it's a way of life... ;)

User avatar
George.Fields
Hobgoblin
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:04 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by George.Fields » Wed May 22, 2013 10:37 pm

The only thing we have to go on the Isle of the Elves is that it is far to the west of Brandobia. That much is said in the section on Reanaaria Bay, but I'm pretty sure that's all we have to go on at this time. I don't recall if 'Friend & Foe: the Elves & Bugbears of Tellene' has anything on it or not.

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Wed May 22, 2013 10:49 pm

IIRC there is one or two references to "lands to the east" in Salt and the Sea Dogs....

User avatar
night_druid
Radiant Dragon
Posts: 6165
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by night_druid » Wed May 22, 2013 11:12 pm

Given Tellene's size, I wouldn't think sea travel would be as great of an obstacle as it is here on Earth. I'd think Caravels should be able to cross the oceans, so I'd expect a good sage should know most if not all of Tellene's major landmasses, and there should probably be trade and travel, limited as it might be, between them.
Moderator: Spelljammer, Kingdoms of Kalamar. My moderator voice is green

Greylond
Bugbear
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 pm
Gender: male

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Greylond » Wed May 22, 2013 11:39 pm

Hey, even small Oceans/Seas can be hazardous and need a deep water ship. For example Earth's Black Sea.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 23172
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Kalamar: The Unknown Lands of the North

Post by Big Mac » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:53 pm

night_druid wrote:Given Tellene's size, I wouldn't think sea travel would be as great of an obstacle as it is here on Earth. I'd think Caravels should be able to cross the oceans, so I'd expect a good sage should know most if not all of Tellene's major landmasses, and there should probably be trade and travel, limited as it might be, between them.
Are there any iconic sea ports in Tellene that are close to the Unknown Lands (or other parts of the map that Kenzer & Co have developed)?

I would have thought that the seafarers would have a bit of trade off of the edge of the map.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.

Post Reply

Return to “Kingdoms of Kalamar”