[vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

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[vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:05 am

I've read on the TSR Archive webpage for Kalamar that there were four cancelled products in the Kingdoms of Kalamar line:
  • K&C1008 Complete Arms & Equipment Guide,
  • K&C1010 Sands of the Khydoban,
  • K&C1024 Siege Warfare
  • K&C1026 Cause & Conviction
Complete Arms & Equipment Guide and Siege Warfare sound like they could be fairly generic d20 System sourcebooks (with the Kingdoms of Kalamar brand name tacked on to make them into official D&D books), but I might be wrong. It is possible that there are dozens of links to the culture of the world.

Sands of the Khydoban sounds like a pretty interesting title to me. I've found what looks like the Sands of the Kydoban cover on a website for an artist called Talon. He says he has an unpublished credit for another Kalamar product called "Svimohzia"!

Khydoban seems to be a desert, perhaps with undead and perhaps with a lost civilisation that had bronze age weapons. I can't be sure if the info I dug up online is canon or fanon.

Cause & Conviction is a hard to read title. That could really be anything.

I'd love to know more about these four (five?) lost books. How far did they get? Did they stall at the Kenzer & Co end or did WotC reject them? (I heard that WotC were giving K&C a hard time over the licence deals, but am not sure if it was over KoK or HackMaster.)
Last edited by Big Mac on Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Angel Tarragon » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:08 am

Big Mac wrote:I've read on the TSR Archive webpage for Kalamar that there were four cancelled products in the Kingdoms of Kalamar line:
  • K&C1008 Complete Arms & Equipment Guide,
  • K&C1010 Sands of the Khydoban,
  • K&C1024 Siege Warfare
  • K&C1026 Cause & Conviction
Complete Arms & Equipment Guide and Siege Warfare sound like they could be fairly generic d20 System sourcebooks (with the Kingdoms of Kalamar brand name tacked on to make them into official D&D books), but I might be wrong. It is possible that there are dozens of links to the culture of the world.
I believe that CA&EG was renamed Goods & Gear.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Angel Tarragon » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:10 am

Big Mac wrote:Sands of the Khydoban sounds like a pretty interesting title to me. I've found what looks like the Sands of the Kydoban cover on a website for an artist called Talon. He says he has an unpublished credit for another Kalamar product called "Svimohzia"!
Svimohzia is an actual produced book.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:15 am

Wow! That was quick! Thanks TAD!
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Angel Tarragon » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:17 am

Big Mac wrote:Wow! That was quick! Thanks TAD!
No prob. Glad to be of help.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:46 am

Goods & Gear looks like it does describe stuff on Tellene, from a review I found, but with the book being duel-stat d20 System and HackMaster, it is sort of* a move towards what we have today. If pulling the "Dungeons & Dragons" logo and renaming the book allowed this to come out that would be a good "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" move.

* I'm not sure how compatible the old HackMaster edition is with the new one.

Now I just need to find out about: Sands of the Khydoban, Siege Warfare and Cause & Conviction.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Greylond » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:20 pm

Big Mac wrote: * I'm not sure how compatible the old HackMaster edition is with the new one.
They are completely different game systems.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:12 pm

Greylond wrote:
Big Mac wrote: * I'm not sure how compatible the old HackMaster edition is with the new one.
They are completely different game systems.
Thanks for the heads-up. (I would have thought there would be some similarities - as there are between 1st Edition AD&D, 2nd Edition AD&D and to a lesser extent 3rd Edition D&D.)
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Greylond » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:26 pm

Nope. For HM4, K&Co had a license to make a parody game(by the terms of the license it had to be parody) that used the 1st&2nd Edition IP. All products had to go through an approval process with WOTC, which eventually was the reason why they stopped making "hacked" products. The license was for 7 years and at the end of it no one, WOTC nor K&Co wished or asked for a renewal. So therefore K&Co decided to create a whole new game. One that plays and feels like an "old school" game but with some new mechanics.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:59 am

Greylond wrote:Nope. For HM4, K&Co had a license to make a parody game(by the terms of the license it had to be parody) that used the 1st&2nd Edition IP. All products had to go through an approval process with WOTC, which eventually was the reason why they stopped making "hacked" products. The license was for 7 years and at the end of it no one, WOTC nor K&Co wished or asked for a renewal. So therefore K&Co decided to create a whole new game. One that plays and feels like an "old school" game but with some new mechanics.
That makes sense (from a legal point of view). I bet that K&C will evolve their system from now on.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Greylond » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:45 am

Dave as already said as much a couple of years ago in a public thread...

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:17 am

Thanks Greylond.

It is a bit of a shame that politics and copyright law push development of RPGs in certain directions when ideally, the player base would like to see a designer make the rules that they think are "most awesome" for what the feel of the game needs.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by ghendar » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:28 pm

Big Mac wrote: Cause & Conviction is a hard to read title. That could really be anything.

Sounds to me like either an adventure module title or a source book on clerics and/or paladins.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Greylond » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:15 pm

Some of this stuff might end up in the HackMaster GameMaster's Guide that should be coming out within a year or so. At one point I'd expect some of this stuff to come out for HM/KoK but would be a couple of years or so...

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:56 am

ghendar wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Cause & Conviction is a hard to read title. That could really be anything.
Sounds to me like either an adventure module title or a source book on clerics and/or paladins.
You could be right there.
Greylond wrote:Some of this stuff might end up in the HackMaster GameMaster's Guide that should be coming out within a year or so. At one point I'd expect some of this stuff to come out for HM/KoK but would be a couple of years or so...
I'll have to keep my ear to the ground and find out how much systemless information is in these new HM books.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by night_druid » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:42 am

Here's what I remember about Goods & Gear: It was slated to be released sometime around the same time WotC was releasing a similar book. Since it was one of the products they needed WotC green-lighting to release it got delayed. WotC dragged their feet, eventually prompting K&C to pull the plug on it. Parts were later incorporated into the HM version, which did get released. I suspect it'll appear again once the new HM GMG is out.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Angel Tarragon » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:20 am

night_druid wrote:Here's what I remember about Goods & Gear: It was slated to be released sometime around the same time WotC was releasing a similar book. Since it was one of the products they needed WotC green-lighting to release it got delayed. WotC dragged their feet, eventually prompting K&C to pull the plug on it. Parts were later incorporated into the HM version, which did get released. I suspect it'll appear again once the new HM GMG is out.
The plug wasn't pulled.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Twin Agate Dragons wrote:
night_druid wrote:Here's what I remember about Goods & Gear: It was slated to be released sometime around the same time WotC was releasing a similar book. Since it was one of the products they needed WotC green-lighting to release it got delayed. WotC dragged their feet, eventually prompting K&C to pull the plug on it. Parts were later incorporated into the HM version, which did get released. I suspect it'll appear again once the new HM GMG is out.
The plug wasn't pulled.
Thanks guys. I think the plug was pulled on K&C1008 Complete Arms & Equipment Guide and the parts were incorporated into Goods and Gear: The Ultimate Adventurer's Guide.

<waves hand>What you both said was true...from a certain point of view.</waves hand> ;)
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Angel Tarragon » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:17 pm

Big Mac wrote:<waves hand>What you both said was true...from a certain point of view.</waves hand> ;)
ROFL! :lol:

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Knightfall » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:25 am

Twin Agate Dragons wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Sands of the Khydoban sounds like a pretty interesting title to me. I've found what looks like the Sands of the Kydoban cover on a website for an artist called Talon. He says he has an unpublished credit for another Kalamar product called "Svimohzia"!
Svimohzia is an actual produced book.
I have this book. It is a great book and it is for v.3.5. I haven't had much of a chance to read it yet, but its content looks solid. All of the KoK books are great. The world is highly detailed. The amount of detail that exists about the world in the setting's books is comparable to the amount of detail the Forgotten Realms got during the D&D 3E era.

The adventures are full of extra information that would normally be a sourcebook. For example, "Forging Darkness" has a 4 to 5 page mini-overview of the city-state of Xaarum, and a great black and white map of the city-state on the inside back cover of the adventure. Since I know you have "The Root of All Evil," you know that it has a similar overview of Zoa. And "Coin's End" has a section called "history of the Lands of Skarrna."

Each adventure is a wealth of information.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Knightfall » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:29 am

Twin Agate Dragons wrote:
night_druid wrote:Here's what I remember about Goods & Gear: It was slated to be released sometime around the same time WotC was releasing a similar book. Since it was one of the products they needed WotC green-lighting to release it got delayed. WotC dragged their feet, eventually prompting K&C to pull the plug on it. Parts were later incorporated into the HM version, which did get released. I suspect it'll appear again once the new HM GMG is out.
The plug wasn't pulled.
I can confirm that the book exists as a physically printed product. It was once in a local game store here in Edmonton, but I never bought it. (I 95% certain it's gone now.) I didn't buy it at the time because I wasn't really into Kalamar at that point.
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by George.Fields » Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:10 am

Here's what I know about these..

K&C1008 Complete Arms & Equipment Guide - a bit of speculation on my part for this: this was transformed into Goods & Gear with dual stats for d20 and HM4e. There are still several Kalamar references in the book, though. The sections on clothing and foods reference the areas that are best know for the items listed. I can only guess this was done because of WotC's D&D Arms & Equipment Guide as someone pointed out earlier, but I have no facts to back that up.

K&C1010 Sands of the Khydoban, - this was abandoned at the play test phase as it wasn't complete and contact with the author stopped.

K&C1024 Siege Warfare - I have no idea about this.

K&C1026 Cause & Conviction - Unfortunately, another that never made it past the play test phase.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:45 pm

George.Fields wrote:Here's what I know about these..
Thanks for coming to the rescue George! :)
George.Fields wrote:K&C1008 Complete Arms & Equipment Guide - a bit of speculation on my part for this: this was transformed into Goods & Gear with dual stats for d20 and HM4e. There are still several Kalamar references in the book, though. The sections on clothing and foods reference the areas that are best know for the items listed. I can only guess this was done because of WotC's D&D Arms & Equipment Guide as someone pointed out earlier, but I have no facts to back that up.
The two names are very similar. I heard that WotC derailed some of the HackMaster books (including the Mystara one). I can imagine them getting a bit hot and bothered about K&C having a book with a similar name to their Arms & Equipment Guide under the Dungeons & Dragons brand name.
George.Fields wrote:K&C1010 Sands of the Khydoban, - this was abandoned at the play test phase as it wasn't complete and contact with the author stopped.
That is a shame as it sounds like this might have been Kenzer & Co's answer to Al-Qadim.

Has anyone made contact with the author since? Do you think this could return as a new Hackmaster version?
George.Fields wrote:K&C1024 Siege Warfare - I have no idea about this.
The name makes it sound like it was mass-combat rules. Maybe WotC thought it was too similar to Chainmail or the Miniatures Handbook. :?
George.Fields wrote:K&C1026 Cause & Conviction - Unfortunately, another that never made it past the play test phase.
Sounds like it was partially complete if there was a playtest. Do you know anyone that took part in the playtest, and who could explain what role this book would have had?
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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by George.Fields » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:00 pm

I realized I was in error on one item: The Sands of the Khydoban. The one I was referencing was actually about the Elos Desert. I know nothing about a Khydoban supplement.

Cause & Conviction was to be about the various organizations on Tellene such as the Network of the Blue Salamander and the Golden Alliance.

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Re: [vapourware] Four cancelled Kalamar products

Post by Big Mac » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:15 pm

George.Fields wrote:I realized I was in error on one item: The Sands of the Khydoban. The one I was referencing was actually about the Elos Desert. I know nothing about a Khydoban supplement.
I found someone on ENWorld called Mark Plemmons, who said in this post, that he was working on Sands of the Khydoban. He last signed in back in August 2012, but I might shoot him a PM to see if he is willing and able to give me an overview of what the book was going to be.

This other post suggests that WotC's Sandstorm was similar to what Mark was going to be doing with Sands of the Kydoban, but I'm kind of wondering about the campaign setting expanding aspect, rather than what crunchy stuff was in there.

EDIT: I've sent Mark a PM. I'm not sure if he will have the spare time to get in touch with me, but I've got my fingers crossed.
George.Fields wrote:Cause & Conviction was to be about the various organizations on Tellene such as the Network of the Blue Salamander and the Golden Alliance.
Thanks. Did another product pick that theme up?
Last edited by Big Mac on Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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