Psionics 5e

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Seethyr
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Psionics 5e

Post by Seethyr » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:04 pm

On Candlekeep they were talking about the giant psionic fungus known as Araumycos that lairs underground and it got me thinking of psionics in 5e. I really liked the psion class and I hope they dedicate a whole book to psionics at some point in the near future like they did in 3e. I really hope they don't have monsters in the MM that they are going to have to retcon to have psionic powers and abilities if this book does come out.

Here's what I'd love to see in it, what would you like to see (if anything)?

1. A history of psionics in the campaign worlds mentioned throughout the book. Touch on every setting but focus on the Realms like they have been doing.

2. The Psion Class with a load of "powers" that come in a format similar to spells from the PHB. Use Archetypes like Cryokineticist, etc.


3. Archetypes for other classes including the Psychic Warrior for the fighter class. Maybe a cleric domain called "Psionics"?

4. Psionic Items galore including all the fabulous material from the old Mind's Eye Articles.

5. A monster section that focuses heavily on the Gem Dragons (including Sardior).

6. Some scattered Realms goodies and sidebars like the aforementioned Araumycos or the god Auppensor.
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by TBeholder » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:47 pm

Just comparing the list of developers who wrote good, or at least palatable, sourcebooks on this issue with those who left the ship?.. Steve Winter (AD&D2 CPsiHb), Richard Baker (The Will and the Way), Bruce Cordell (all that illithid stuff). 3/3
The other point of reference is the baseline of immediately preceding achievements, and given that 5e is 3.5e with a few patches from C&C and suchlike, the value here is negative.
So, yeah. Chances are, 5e psionics, if any, is going to be either
  1. Yet another reprint, with serial numbers (and perhaps the original authors' names) filed off and new (and uglier) illustrations, or
  2. Even newage-er and derp-ier than 3e Complete Schizo. I don't know how it's even possible to do any worse... but hey, the discovery is always the fun part. :twisted:
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Freedom92 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:20 pm

I hope they do produce psionics but for now the MM suggest using spells when they described the Thrikreen variant. Seen a few psionic brews for it already though.

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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by shesheyan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:24 pm

TBeholder wrote: and given that 5e is 3.5e with a few patches from C&C and suchlike, the value here is negative.
[off topic]That statement is way off the mark my friend. 5E has no BAB, no horrendous tentacular multi-classing system, no headache inducing skills and cross class skill system, and barely no feats. With that removed it doesn't qualify as a 3e spin off. 5E is a 2E reboot with the lessons (good and bad) learned from 3E and 4E.[/off topic]
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by shesheyan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:31 pm

Freedom92 wrote:I hope they do produce psionics but for now the MM suggest using spells when they described the Thrikreen variant. Seen a few psionic brews for it already though.
True, I don't think they will do a specific system for psionics. The bard powers are a good indication that anything that ressembles magic/psionics/mystical/lyrical powers and the like will be using a spell. I'm ok with that nowadays. I used to really love sub-systems but I think I'm not the only one when I say that we learned that stress they put on the internal consistency and balance of the game is not worth it.
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by TBeholder » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:28 pm

shesheyan wrote:
TBeholder wrote: and given that 5e is 3.5e with a few patches from C&C and suchlike, the value here is negative.
[off topic]That statement is way off the mark my friend. 5E has no BAB, no horrendous tentacular multi-classing system, no headache inducing skills and cross class skill system, and barely no feats. With that removed
That's not against my point at all. It's still extra patches plus removal of obvious cancerous growth using a chainsaw. Especially not when there was left enough to grow back. Feats can be added, and "options" on this level are not really options, as they leave only two possibilities:
  1. Emergence of de-facto default variant - i.e. the final decisive struggle between 3e and 4e under table.
  2. Degeneration of further development into incompatible spaghetti, i.e. trying to keep both and falling into vat of rotten molasses together.
Freedom92 wrote:I hope they do produce psionics but for now the MM suggest using spells when they described the Thrikreen variant. Seen a few psionic brews for it already though.
Which also leaves two and half roads:
  1. Variation of an existing component with purely cosmetic differences. A.k.a "one more magic", which is either superfluous or superfluous with loonie and/or contradictory elements born of strained attempts to make it look "different".
  2. The new part is glued on the side. May work well with itself, but bad compatibility of some elements preclude good integration into the whole.
  3. The worst-case scenario: both at once.
We have seen how both variants work before, right?
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by shesheyan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:35 pm

TBeholder wrote:
shesheyan wrote:
TBeholder wrote: and given that 5e is 3.5e with a few patches from C&C and suchlike, the value here is negative.
[off topic]That statement is way off the mark my friend. 5E has no BAB, no horrendous tentacular multi-classing system, no headache inducing skills and cross class skill system, and barely no feats. With that removed
That's not against my point at all. It's still extra patches plus removal of obvious cancerous growth using a chainsaw. Especially not when there was left enough to grow back. Feats can be added, and "options" on this level are not really options, as they leave only two possibilities:
  1. Emergence of de-facto default variant - i.e. the final decisive struggle between 3e and 4e under table.
  2. Degeneration of further development into incompatible spaghetti, i.e. trying to keep both and falling into vat of rotten molasses together.
Freedom92 wrote:I hope they do produce psionics but for now the MM suggest using spells when they described the Thrikreen variant. Seen a few psionic brews for it already though.
Which also leaves two and half roads:
  1. Variation of an existing component with purely cosmetic differences. A.k.a "one more magic", which is either superfluous or superfluous with loonie and/or contradictory elements born of strained attempts to make it look "different".
  2. The new part is glued on the side. May work well with itself, but bad compatibility of some elements preclude good integration into the whole.
  3. The worst-case scenario: both at once.
We have seen how both variants work before, right?

So much hate and contempt... I truly don't understand why you bother posting in the 5E section.
I'm done with this place. Too much hate for anything WoTC has been doing.
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by TBeholder » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:47 pm

shesheyan wrote:So much hate and contempt...
Then why won't you express it meaningfully, rather than just declaring it... We're at gaming forums, not custom house or pop scene.
Even if telepathy is related to the thread's subject. :lol:

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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Seethyr » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:11 pm

Arguing game mechanics is like arguing politics. There is never a perfect answer, only your personal preferences based on what you value and therefore it just ends up being a divisive issue where no one gets anywhere. Wasn't really my point for this thread.

What I was really asking, and I know I'm not usually clear because to be honest I think I posted that after throwing back a few, is that if they DID make a Psionics book, what would you like to see in it. I didn't mean for it to go this way...
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by TBeholder » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:34 pm

Seethyr wrote:Arguing game mechanics is like arguing politics. There is never a perfect answer, only your personal preferences based on what you value and therefore it just ends up being a divisive issue where no one gets anywhere.
Yes, but this very fact occasionally provides comic relief, too.
Seethyr wrote:What I was really asking, and I know I'm not usually clear because to be honest I think I posted that after throwing back a few, is that if they DID make a Psionics book, what would you like to see in it.
Same as with everything else. Starting at the settings (rather than taking bones and painting onto them something unrelated to anything else, like in 3.x), making it a thing worth having (rather than "everything is the same painted differently and let's give them all familiars" like in 3.x or "another padded sumo style game, mostly separated from the main one" as in PO/DS2), making it compatible with everything else (unlike 2e version telepathy), mechanical quality (useability) - at very least, numerate and reasonably playtested (failed horribly in PO/DS2, and the early version had pointless juggling with big numbers and tables instead of straightforward checks).
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Dragon Turtle » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:18 pm

Ok,
looks like this is returning to topic. Let's make sure it stays on topic.

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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Dragonhelm » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:32 pm

Having the psychic warrior as a fighter subclass, a la the eldritch knight, seems pretty spot on to me.

What I question is whether we will have a psion class, or if the psion will be a sorcerous origin for the sorcerer class.
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Birchbeer » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:22 am

I think there would be a psion class based upon some of the Monster Manual leaks I've seen where they use Wisdom as the manifestation stat.

I could see subclasses for Monk, Bard (2nd edition Gypsy), Paladin/Cleric (Ardent). Not sure where the Soulknife would fit best, perhaps as a Rogue variant?

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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Birchbeer » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:41 am

Just got my Monster Manual. It looks like Psionics key off of Int for some monsters, Wisdom for others. Here's a quick rundown (I may have missed some monsters):
Int:
Githyanki
Mind Flayer

Wis:
Githzerai
Thri-kreen

Some of the monsters which were psionic in prior editions no longer are (Duergar, Yuan-ti), where as others seems to hint at being psionic (Telepathy for Aboleths and Flumphs). I'm also wondering if they will later release a psionic variant of the formerly psionic monsters in a future book.

Edit.. sent that too quick.

So if I had to guess you could do the following:

Int based:
Psion (New class)
Gypsy (Bard, could be Charisma?)

Wisdom based:
Monk (Variant)
Ardent (Paladin/Cleric)

Unknown:
Soulknife (Rogue or Warrior?)
Psychic Warrior (Warrior)

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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Seethyr » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:28 am

Thought of a few more items. They did a "Building Tika and Artemis" theme throughout the Basic D&D download and the PHB. Dragonhelm's last post made me think of a good reflection for the Psionics handbook that might work.

How about "Building Kimmuriel Oblodra?" Perhaps even a write up on House Oblodra? Since the whole house was focused on psionics, and they get significant stage time in RAS novels, I think they'd do quite nicely.

Also as Birchbeer demonstrated, they could have an archetype for pretty much every established class. I'd definitely go with Soulknife as a rogue.
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Birchbeer » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:10 pm

I've run games for a while and a lot of the times I've modified rules so a player can have the character concept he/she envisioned. I'm not certain any rules set built with a generic expectation will ever be able to replicate a novel character's ability 100% with out a DM being flexible.

How this helps the discussion of 5e psionics however I don't follow. I'm trying to present ways Wizards or DMs can implement it based upon previous editions. We could discuss how certain characters do psionics in novels and how they could be implemented. Hopefully the thread helps the folks who want to envision ways to use psionics in the current edition. If it doesn't help you use the rules you prefer ( though you may need to adapt them if you want to run 5th edition).

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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Dragonhelm » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:47 pm

So as a mental exercise (pun intended! :mrgreen: ), let's talk about how we would shape psionics for 5e.

Some basic assumptions:
1. A Psionics Handbook for 5e would look at all editions of psionics as inspiration.
2. The most popular psionics system, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, would be the prime inspiration.
3. Psionics would include a power point system to determine powers per day and augmentation.
4. Psionics would include a list of powers known, similar to the sorcerer and warlock spells known.
5. Psionic powers can be augmented.
6. The handbook would attempt to evoke more of a fantasy flavor.
7. The handbook would present psionics as either magic or its own power source.

Classes: Psion (so much cooler sounding and easier to say/spell than psionicist)
Psion Subclasses: Based on disciplines. Similar to wizard schools or cleric domains.

Subclasses for other classes: Psychic Warrior (not Battlemind) for the fighter, soulknife for the rogue. Maybe a mentalism domain for the cleric (to represent the ardent?).

Wilder - Probably folded into the psion somehow.

As an alternative, the psion could be made into a subclass of the sorcerer. It actually would fit quite well.

Races: As for races, I don't think we need to go overboard. Thri-Kreen is a must. I figure they'll follow 4e and make the goliath/half-giant one and the same. Personally, I think that was a brilliant move. Other races from the 3e psionics HB could be used. Not sure how.

Psicrystals: These are a must.

Feats: Wild Talent, allowing any class to have a few power points and a small number of powers.
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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Havard » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:57 pm

Rules for Psionics have been posted at WotC:
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feature ... ned-mystic

Thoughts on this pdf?

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Re: Psionics 5e

Post by Angel Tarragon » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:51 pm

Havard wrote:Rules for Psionics have been posted at WotC:
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feature ... ned-mystic

Thoughts on this pdf?

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This is insanely cool, I love the foundation. I can easily see myself using some of this to provide a solid framework for my own Pyschic class for my homebrew.

I really like how psionics is drawn from the Far Realm.
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