No Proficiency?

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Havard
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No Proficiency?

Post by Havard »

So, a 20th level character and a 1st level character with no proficiency with a weapon or even saving throw has exactly the same chance of success/failure?

Especially in the case of Saving Throws this seems very different from the older editions?

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Princess Strega
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Princess Strega »

Characters get a proficiency bonus, which is variable based on character level.

See page 15 in the Player's Handbook.

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Hugin
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Hugin »

That is generally correct, Havard. If you don't have proficiency, you don't get the bonus (which is like a universal "base attack bonus" that now applies to skills, saving throws, as well as attacks.

This *is* very different than older editions but it works very well within the new framework that 5th Edition operates. For instance, in 5E you get to increase your ability scores by 2 points every 4 levels. This is the main avenue by which your non-proficiencies improve. So while a 20th level PC and a 1st level PC will have the same proficiency bonus ( +0 ) when not proficient, it is very possible that the 20th level PC has improved his ability score and now has a higher modifier.

Another factor is 5E's "bounded accuracy"; the numbers just simply don't inflate as much as they used to as you level up. An example is a fighter's attack bonus. In 3E it was a +20 to your roll at 20th level, while in 5E it is only a +6.

There are also other features and abilities that might help out.

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Marco Fossati
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Marco Fossati »

Havard wrote:So, a 20th level character and a 1st level character with no proficiency with a weapon or even saving throw has exactly the same chance of success/failure?

Especially in the case of Saving Throws this seems very different from the older editions?

-Havard
That's correct. Theorically, in some circumstances, a 1st level character could have a better bonus than a 20th level character; maybe a saving throw where the 1st level is proficient and has an high ability bonus while the 20th isn't proficient

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Havard
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Havard »

Thank you gentlemen!

That helps alot. Definitely different from older editions. I was also going to ask about the overall low bonuses at 20th level, but you guys already answered that. A character with 18 in the relevant ability score and proficiency in a skill will only a have +10 total at 20th level. That was pretty shocking to me. :shock:

I don't really have a problem with these things, just a matter of adjusting my mindset :)

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Hugin
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Hugin »

You're welcome, Havard. And right; it does take a bit to get used to but I'm also finding it quite enjoyable so far.

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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Marco Fossati »

Havard wrote:Thank you gentlemen!

That helps alot. Definitely different from older editions. I was also going to ask about the overall low bonuses at 20th level, but you guys already answered that. A character with 18 in the relevant ability score and proficiency in a skill will only a have +10 total at 20th level. That was pretty shocking to me. :shock:

I don't really have a problem with these things, just a matter of adjusting my mindset :)

-Havard
With a +10 bonus you still have 20%chance to fail a saving throw or an ability check of medium difficulty (DC 15).

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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Vile »

This is the key to making the game work more smoothly over a wider range of levels, and keeping monster types in play beyond their hit dice range.

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Hugin
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Hugin »

Marco Fossati wrote:With a +10 bonus you still have 20%chance to fail a saving throw or an ability check of medium difficulty (DC 15).
While this is absolutely true, many checks can be done with help from another, which allows the primary character who is making the check to roll with advantage (i.e. rolls two d20s and take the best - which is approximately a +5 bonus). This can also be done in combat with someone's attack roll (as a type of skill check) but requires an action to give the help.

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Marco Fossati
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Marco Fossati »

True Hugin. The game system is very different from BECMI or AD&D so old guard gamers approaching 5E for tje rist time shouldn't have "fear" of high bonuses. They'd be very high in older editions but not so very high in 5E. Also monsters are thougher in 5E.

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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by DirtSkull »

Marco Fossati wrote:True Hugin. The game system is very different from BECMI or AD&D so old guard gamers approaching 5E for tje rist time shouldn't have "fear" of high bonuses. They'd be very high in older editions but not so very high in 5E. Also monsters are thougher in 5E.
As an "old guard" gamer/mainly player, I haven't raised a character past 5th level since 1996.

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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Princess Strega »

DirtSkull wrote:As an "old guard" gamer/mainly player, I haven't raised a character past 5th level since 1996.
Hey, that's the year I graduated high school. :lol:

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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by rabindranath72 »

The system still works because they have divorced hit dice from monsters/NPCs "level" (which is given by the Challenge rating.)

Castles & Crusades works based on a similar concept, but since a monster/NPC's level is equal to its hit dice, the game effectively breaks down after about 5th level, where non-prime saves become strongly biased against characters. Add the fact that spell damage scales like in AD&D, and you get the recipe for a very broken game.

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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by JamesMishler »

Also, don't forget that many spells with persistent effects are also now "save every round to end the condition." So though your saves seem relatively low, you get multiple chances to make the save, when the condition is persistent...

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Hugin
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Hugin »

JamesMishler wrote:Also, don't forget that many spells with persistent effects are also now "save every round to end the condition." So though your saves seem relatively low, you get multiple chances to make the save, when the condition is persistent...
That's another very good point regarding saving throws. I've noticed this several times before but now I'm curious if that is always the case with lingering effects. I'll have to look at it later today when I have the chance.

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Marco Fossati
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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by Marco Fossati »

JamesMishler wrote:Also, don't forget that many spells with persistent effects are also now "save every round to end the condition." So though your saves seem relatively low, you get multiple chances to make the save, when the condition is persistent...
I really like the new way to handle persistent effects.

Personally I disliked the save or die, save or be petrified/paralyzed, and so on, that usually are in older version. It seemed to me they were too much "unfair", since PCs could be removed from game, or at least from a fight, with a single bad roll.

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Re: No Proficiency?

Post by shesheyan »

Marco Fossati wrote:
JamesMishler wrote:Also, don't forget that many spells with persistent effects are also now "save every round to end the condition." So though your saves seem relatively low, you get multiple chances to make the save, when the condition is persistent...
I really like the new way to handle persistent effects.

Personally I disliked the save or die, save or be petrified/paralyzed, and so on, that usually are in older version. It seemed to me they were too much "unfair", since PCs could be removed from game, or at least from a fight, with a single bad roll.
Agreed!

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