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talsine
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Creating New races

Post by talsine » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:19 pm

I recently got coned (talked) into playing 5E by some friends and I told them I would play if I could do my own race. Nothing super powerful, I just wanted to do the Wolf Rider elves from the comic series Elf Quest.

Originally I was just going to start with a Halfling, add Telepathy, and fiddle till it ffelt right, but then a remember someone here had a race creation PDF they were selling. So i bought a copy, The Tinker’s Toolkit Race Design, and started reading it and, wow, MATH. Like, it seems like it works well, but its a bit too much MATH for me. Anyone want to offer some help?

I was going to just do the Wolf Riders, but since I am starting, I might as well go all in and create all of the major sub races (Sunfolf, Go Backs, Airfolf, Wolf Riders, Sea Elves)

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Re: Creating New races

Post by Coronoides » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:46 pm

I humbly suggest my book. See signature. The product of hundreds of hours of algebra to reverse engineer how WOTC does it. Then playtested for three years. This is intended for DMs so you still need approval/oversight.

On the other hand your concept could probably be made with existing canon rules. An wood elf with high animal handling and athletics for riding. Put a gp price on riding wolves and you’re done.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:56 pm

Coronoides wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:46 pm
I humbly suggest my book. See signature. The product of hundreds of hours of algebra to reverse engineer how WOTC does it. Then playtested for three years. This is intended for DMs so you still need approval/oversight.
I have your book, I bought it specifically to do this, but its very MATH, which makes sense, i read through all of the explanations, but I just can't get it to work. For example, how would I cost telepathy? All of the Elves can communicate with each other telepathically within LoS. I don't think it would be a combat power (there is a version called Black Sending that would be, but I would represent that separately as a feat since its not something all elves can do as it is a developed talent) or the Wolf Riders empathic bonds with their mounts? (in game, i will probably just call them all Rangers for ease of play, but in the original stories they all have bond wolves so if I want to be true to the source, i would need to model that as a racial talent)

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Re: Creating New races

Post by Coronoides » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:09 am

talsine wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:56 pm
Coronoides wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:46 pm
I humbly suggest my book. See signature. The product of hundreds of hours of algebra to reverse engineer how WOTC does it. Then playtested for three years. This is intended for DMs so you still need approval/oversight.
I have your book, I bought it specifically to do this, but its very MATH, which makes sense, i read through all of the explanations, but I just can't get it to work. For example, how would I cost telepathy? All of the Elves can communicate with each other telepathically within LoS. I don't think it would be a combat power (there is a version called Black Sending that would be, but I would represent that separately as a feat since its not something all elves can do as it is a developed talent) or the Wolf Riders empathic bonds with their mounts? (in game, i will probably just call them all Rangers for ease of play, but in the original stories they all have bond wolves so if I want to be true to the source, i would need to model that as a racial talent)
Here to help!
Take a breath and remember for typical races 12 points of traits and no more than six 0 point traits. For almost all traits just look them up on the big table at the back of the book to get the price.
So the telepathy is between elves only? Can they use it with other species? Standard Telepathy (as per the Monster Manual) is 2pt at first level. If their telepathy is more limited it will be worth less.
The empathic bond with wolves I’d cover as being able to communicate with a specific animal type (0pt, remember max of 6 zero pt lesser traits). You want a wolf buy it. You want a proper animal companion be a ranger.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm

The Telepathy is only between other "elves" (all of the various subtypes, but they can't use it to communicate outside of that) , so probably one point then? Cause it is still potentially powerful in an all elf group, so I would hate to give it away as a lesser trait.

I would want to model their wolf companions as the Beast Mastery intro power that they get at lvl 3, but a class trait as a racial trait would be very powerful, so maybe just speak with animals (wolves) and trained in Animal Handling? The telepathy and the wolf bond are the defining features of the race, so going kind all in on those isn't a huge deal.

Other than that, they are Small, +2 Dex, +1 Wis. Skill training in Survival, Perception and Animal Handling (depending on how modeling the animal companion ends up working out).

These will be the hardest, once I have them done, i can use them as a template to model the basic "Twin Moon Elf' package, I can't keep calling them elves since that is it's own race, and start working on the others.

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Re: Creating New races

Post by Coronoides » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:21 am

talsine wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
The Telepathy is only between other "elves" (all of the various subtypes, but they can't use it to communicate outside of that) , so probably one point then? Cause it is still potentially powerful in an all elf group, so I would hate to give it away as a lesser trait.


Good point. Depending on how common elves are in your game I'd say 1pt as you suggest or 0.5 but no lower.
talsine wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
I would want to model their wolf companions as the Beast Mastery intro power that they get at lvl 3, but a class trait as a racial trait would be very powerful, so maybe just speak with animals (wolves) and trained in Animal Handling? The telepathy and the wolf bond are the defining features of the race, so going kind all in on those isn't a huge deal.
Yeh, if its their thing you want it to be special. I think you are on the right track. You might make speak with canine beasts, or not. You could add 'Advantage on skill(ability score) in specific circumstance' i.e. Advantage on Animal Handling (Wisdom) when dealing with wolves and other canines. 2pt at first level or 1 point at 4th.

Generally, avoiding class features is a good idea. they step on the classes toes and my analysis didn't really do classes so any point prices are iffy. I think I'd price animal companion at about 4pt code I.
talsine wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
Other than that, they are Small, +2 Dex, +1 Wis. Skill training in Survival, Perception and Animal Handling (depending on how modeling the animal companion ends up working out).

These will be the hardest, once I have them done, i can use them as a template to model the basic "Twin Moon Elf' package, I can't keep calling them elves since that is it's own race, and start working on the others.
So something like this?
Telepathy 1
Speak with wolves (canines?) 0
Animal handling skill 2
Advantage animal handling wolves (canines?) at 4th level 1
skill survival 2
skill perception 2
small -2
+2 Dex 4
+1 Wis 2
Darkvision 60? 0
TOTAL 12 Bullseye!

Safety
Telepathy limited to elves I
Speak with wolves I
Skills P
Adv. with animal handling with wolves X
Small X
Ability score adjustments P
Lowest rated trait is I, and more than 6pt of 'P'
Final safety rating **1/2 between playtest and typical. Pretty safe. Elves, halflings, gnomes, and half-orcs would be rated 'typical' if they were home-brews.

You've got good instincts.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:10 am

Coronoides wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:21 am
talsine wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
The Telepathy is only between other "elves" (all of the various subtypes, but they can't use it to communicate outside of that) , so probably one point then? Cause it is still potentially powerful in an all elf group, so I would hate to give it away as a lesser trait.


Good point. Depending on how common elves are in your game I'd say 1pt as you suggest or 0.5 but no lower.
talsine wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
I would want to model their wolf companions as the Beast Mastery intro power that they get at lvl 3, but a class trait as a racial trait would be very powerful, so maybe just speak with animals (wolves) and trained in Animal Handling? The telepathy and the wolf bond are the defining features of the race, so going kind all in on those isn't a huge deal.
Yeh, if its their thing you want it to be special. I think you are on the right track. You might make speak with canine beasts, or not. You could add 'Advantage on skill(ability score) in specific circumstance' i.e. Advantage on Animal Handling (Wisdom) when dealing with wolves and other canines. 2pt at first level or 1 point at 4th.

Generally, avoiding class features is a good idea. they step on the classes toes and my analysis didn't really do classes so any point prices are iffy. I think I'd price animal companion at about 4pt code I.
talsine wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:42 pm
Other than that, they are Small, +2 Dex, +1 Wis. Skill training in Survival, Perception and Animal Handling (depending on how modeling the animal companion ends up working out).

These will be the hardest, once I have them done, i can use them as a template to model the basic "Twin Moon Elf' package, I can't keep calling them elves since that is it's own race, and start working on the others.
So something like this?
Telepathy 1
Speak with wolves (canines?) 0
Animal handling skill 2
Advantage animal handling wolves (canines?) at 4th level 1
skill survival 2
skill perception 2
small -2
+2 Dex 4
+1 Wis 2
Darkvision 60? 0
TOTAL 12 Bullseye!

Safety
Telepathy limited to elves I
Speak with wolves I
Skills P
Adv. with animal handling with wolves X
Small X
Ability score adjustments P
Lowest rated trait is I, and more than 6pt of 'P'
Final safety rating **1/2 between playtest and typical. Pretty safe. Elves, halflings, gnomes, and half-orcs would be rated 'typical' if they were home-brews.

You've got good instincts.
They don't have Dark Vision in the comics, but they are def nocturnal and 5E doesn't do Low Light Vision and Darkvision as different, so I think that is fitting.

Ok, that math makes more sense here, I think it was the Telepathy that i was getting stuck on. And the Animal Bond, but I do agree with you that taking a class feature as a race feature would be a bit much. even if it is one of the worst of the class features out there. I think I will work out one of the others on my own and bring it back here later, see if I can get the math right solo.

Thank you so much for your help!

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Re: Creating New races

Post by Coronoides » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:38 am

I look forward to seeing the others. We played a few sessions of Elfquest errrr 30ish years ago. I played a preserver!
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:12 am

So here are the 4 main races (i'm not gonna do First Born or High Ones cause they would be NPC only races if I even had them in the game)

Wolf Riders

Telepathy 1
Speak with wolves (canines?) 0
Animal handling skill 2
Advantage animal handling wolves (canines?) at 4th level 1
skill survival 2
skill perception 2
small -2
+2 Dex 4
+1 Wis 2
Darkvision 60? 0

---

Go Backs

Telepathy 1
Animal handling skill 2
skill survival 2
+2 Con 4
+1 Wis 2
Advantage on Survival checks in cold envoirments @ 4th lvl 1
Darkvision 60? 0

---

Sunfolk

Telepathy 1
skill survival 2
skill perform 2
+2 Cha 4
+1 Wis 2
Advantage on Survival checks in desert envoirments @ 4th lvl 1
Darkvision 60? 0

---

Wavedancers

Telepathy 1
skill survival 2
+2 Dex 4
+1 Cha 2
Amphibious 2
Swim Speed 30 0
Advantage on Survival checks in aquatic envoirments @ 4th lvl 1

-----

That aside, a friend of mine compared the wolf bond to the Find Familiar ritual (much larger animal) but that got me in thinking, maybe do it as a spell like ability? There are a couple of options (Animal Friendship, Find Familiar, or Find Steed), none of which are perfect, but it would give me a basis for working out a price / cost. There is a precedent with this ability (from your PDF)

Animal friendship snakes only at will
F
0
2
PHB212, VGM120
PHB24,37,43,DMG287,VGM105,120. similar to a cantrip but rarely useful

Now, this would still be limited, to canines not snakes so a larger group, but I could narrow it further to only being used on one animal at a time. It feels like a 1 to 3 point ability, and would replace the animal handling bonuses. It still feels kind of strong at lvl 1 though, because a wolf is a strong combatant @ lvl 1. Maybe push it to 4 and sacrifice simulation for balance. Just something I am thinking about.

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Re: Creating New races

Post by Coronoides » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:28 am

I dunno come over here to Australia get a snake bite then tell me snakes are not strong combatants ;)
Be sure to carefully read spell for limits
I’m just out of day surgery I’ll think about this later ;)
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:14 pm

Coronoides wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:28 am
I dunno come over here to Australia get a snake bite then tell me snakes are not strong combatants ;)
Be sure to carefully read spell for limits
Side question, from Australia? Have you ever heard of Fragged Empire? Has nothing at all to do with the current race building conversation, but I'm curious

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Re: Creating New races

Post by Coronoides » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:45 am

talsine wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:14 pm
Coronoides wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:28 am
I dunno come over here to Australia get a snake bite then tell me snakes are not strong combatants ;)
Be sure to carefully read spell for limits
Side question, from Australia? Have you ever heard of Fragged Empire? Has nothing at all to do with the current race building conversation, but I'm curious
Yes, never played but the guy is around Melbourne and I’m on the same designers’ FB group.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:43 pm

Alternate Wolf Riders

Wolf Riders

Telepathy 1 (Limited: other elves and their bond animals only)
skill survival 2
skill animal handling 2
small -2
+2 Dex 4
+1 Wis 2
Darkvision 60? 0

Wolf bond: Wolfriders can cast a perm Animal Friendship spell on a single wolf / canine beast of no more than 1/4 CR and Medium size. If their bond dies, they can form a new bond, but only after a specific period of time as determined by the DM, but no less than 1 month in game time. In addition to the affects of animal friendship, the Wolf Rider can use his Telepathy ability to communicate with the bond animal, and they get advantage on all Animal Handling rolls towards the bond animal. 3

I was thinking of pricing this @ 3, 1 for the advantage on Animal handling that is limited to just the bond animal, and 1 for a first level non-combat spell at 1 first level, and 1 because it is persistent beyond the spells normal duration (a day) but limited to just a single animal of one kind at a time.

What do you think? I know the Wolf Bond is not very similiar to anything else, but i don't feel like that is super powerful, its not even as powerful as a BM rangers companion, and I could even put some text in there that states if they are a BM ranger, they have to choose their bond, and those BM bonuses would supersede everything here but the telepathy? That seems awfully wordy to add to an already wordy ability.

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:50 pm

Also, here are the Windriders, they are flyers, so by default going to be more powerful

Windriders

Telepathy 1
Animal handling skill 2
+2 Int 4
+1 Dex 2
Darkvision 60? 0
Wingless flight speed of 30, no medium / heavy armor, @ 4th level 3 (this is a guess, its earlier than most get it, but limited by the no medium / heavy armor.)

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Re: Creating New races

Post by pawsplay » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:13 am

talsine wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:10 am
They don't have Dark Vision in the comics, but they are def nocturnal and 5E doesn't do Low Light Vision and Darkvision as different, so I think that is fitting.

Ok, that math makes more sense here, I think it was the Telepathy that i was getting stuck on. And the Animal Bond, but I do agree with you that taking a class feature as a race feature would be a bit much. even if it is one of the worst of the class features out there. I think I will work out one of the others on my own and bring it back here later, see if I can get the math right solo.

Thank you so much for your help!
In an anthology of tie-in fiction, their darkvision is explicitly described. The Blood of Ten Chiefs, Vol. 1.

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Re: Creating New races

Post by talsine » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:56 pm

pawsplay wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:13 am
talsine wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:10 am
They don't have Dark Vision in the comics, but they are def nocturnal and 5E doesn't do Low Light Vision and Darkvision as different, so I think that is fitting.

Ok, that math makes more sense here, I think it was the Telepathy that i was getting stuck on. And the Animal Bond, but I do agree with you that taking a class feature as a race feature would be a bit much. even if it is one of the worst of the class features out there. I think I will work out one of the others on my own and bring it back here later, see if I can get the math right solo.

Thank you so much for your help!
In an anthology of tie-in fiction, their darkvision is explicitly described. The Blood of Ten Chiefs, Vol. 1.
Yes, but its not the B/W darkvision of D&D, its more like the old low light vision, which specifically allows them to see more and further in limited light.

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