Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

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Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Havard » Fri May 31, 2013 10:30 am

Which sourcebooks from the MWP line (or even WotC 3E books) would be recommended to run a campaign set on Taladas? I know that Taladas was not detailed for 3E, but I am sure some of the existing material can be helpful?

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by rabindranath72 » Fri May 31, 2013 1:06 pm

It's mostly crunch; the DLCS book which details mystics, cleric domains and a few other campaign-independent bits.
The Bestiary could be useful as it contains a few non-strictly Ansalonian creatures.
Holy Orders of the Stars sourcebook; although these do not exist on Taladas, the additional details about the deities and prestige classes might be useful (though not all gods are worshiped on Taladas.)
Wizards of High Sorcery book might be useful for some spells and prestige classes.

But really Taladas is its own "beast." You could run a perfectly good Taladas campaign with just the core 3e books (and DLCS if you want clerical domains information.)

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Havard » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:03 pm

Thanks Rabindranath!

Good point about the Holy Order of the Stars book.

Were there any Taladas-specific monsters?

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:38 am

Havard wrote:Which sourcebooks from the MWP line (or even WotC 3E books) would be recommended to run a campaign set on Taladas? I know that Taladas was not detailed for 3E, but I am sure some of the existing material can be helpful?
One thing to consider is what era you want to use.

I personally prefer the War of the Lance era to the Age of Mortals era, but both have sourcebooks from MWP that might be of some use to you.

During (and just before) the War of the Lance era, there would be evil dragons sneaking around on Taladas, working with the evil clerics and evil wizards to research the methods of creating draconians. There are actually two types of rejected draconians that were dumped on Taladas, while the others were taken to Ansalon, so it might be fun to use that as the background of a game.

During the Age of Mortals, Takhisis stole Krynn and spellcasting (both arcane and divine) was changed drastically. I would presume that would change things in Taladas, as much as it changed things in Ansalon. If you want to play in that era, you would want to work out what you are going to do with the magic.

However bear in mind that Taladas worked slightly differently in the first place. So you would be using either War of the Lance or the Age of Mortals sourcebooks as a guide.

As, Rabindranath72 said, Holy Orders of the Stars is useful. The main issue you have with that is that the people of Taladas have different names for the gods. They probably also have different rituals and ways of dealing with the gods. So you need to take that book with a pinch of salt too.

Towers of High Sorcery has good and bad points to it. On the plus side, there is the moon-magic system, which should apply across the entire planet (as well as the rest of the crystal sphere). So I see that book being pretty flexible on that front. On the minus side, there is a strong tie in to the organisation called the Wizards of High Sorcery. So all of those bits are going to be useless to you. Perhaps, not totally useless, but you will need to convert them from Ansalon to Taladas and I'm not sure how much would be left. (However, if you don't already own Towers of High Sorcery, you probably won't be able to afford to buy it. There is currently an Amazon bandit trying to charge nearly £1000.00 for a copy! :o )

The next "organisation" book, is Knightly Orders of Ansalon. Like HOotS and ToHS it contains a lot of information tied to organisations that are not present in Taladas. But Taladas does have organised military organisations, especially in the minotaur area, and they are going to work in a similar way to the knighthoods, in some respects. If you have a copy, it will give you some idea as to how to convert the military over to 3e.

Then you have the Bestiary of Krynn, which was published twice by MWP. I recommend the later Bestiary of Krynn Revised as it contains more "stuff". Some monsters, such as the yaggol, are specific to Taladas. But you could probably rework the Ansalon-only monsters to work as Taladas variants. The non-sentient monsters would be easiest. The ones that are intellent and who are tied into the cultures of Ansalon (or another part of Krynn) would need more work.

Dragons of Krynn is probably a must-have, or at least a book you want to borrow. It covers the Dragons of Taladas, although that is a very short section. There are also a lot of pages about draconians...and noble draconians, either of which could be hidden around Taladas at the right time. You will also want to look at page 135! :P

The one book you might not think to use is Legends of the Twins. That is based around the time travel where Raistlin, Caramon and Tas going back to the era of the Kingpriest. That might be useful if you fancy playing a game in an intact Taladas, and want some inspiration on how to do things before the Cataclysm, although, again, things are all going to be different. But the thing that is best of all, is the chapter that has the "Alternate Krynns". That is kind of like Sliders meets Dragonlance. And the reason why that might be helpful, is that if you can't quite do the research to do a canon version of Taladas, an "alternate" version could be something you can knock up instead.

Just imagine what Taladas would be like if you added the Wizards of High Sorcery. With an Alternate Krynn, you can do that, or anything else.
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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by NPCDave » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:29 am

Big Mac wrote:
Havard wrote:Which sourcebooks from the MWP line (or even WotC 3E books) would be recommended to run a campaign set on Taladas? I know that Taladas was not detailed for 3E, but I am sure some of the existing material can be helpful?
One thing to consider is what era you want to use.


Towers of High Sorcery has good and bad points to it. On the plus side, there is the moon-magic system, which should apply across the entire planet (as well as the rest of the crystal sphere). So I see that book being pretty flexible on that front. On the minus side, there is a strong tie in to the organisation called the Wizards of High Sorcery. So all of those bits are going to be useless to you. Perhaps, not totally useless, but you will need to convert them from Ansalon to Taladas and I'm not sure how much would be left. (However, if you don't already own Towers of High Sorcery, you probably won't be able to afford to buy it. There is currently an Amazon bandit trying to charge nearly £1000.00 for a copy! :o )

The next "organisation" book, is Knightly Orders of Ansalon. Like HOotS and ToHS it contains a lot of information tied to organisations that are not present in Taladas. But Taladas does have organised military organisations, especially in the minotaur area, and they are going to work in a similar way to the knighthoods, in some respects. If you have a copy, it will give you some idea as to how to convert the military over to 3e.
Appreciate the post Mac, very informative.

So there is the mage guild of the Towers of High Sorcery never existed on Taladas? The idea of using the moon-magic system but jettisoning the Ansalon organization appeals to me.

So Knights of Solamnia and those much later Takhisis knights are unknown on Taladas?

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Havard » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:55 pm

NPCDave wrote:So there is the mage guild of the Towers of High Sorcery never existed on Taladas? The idea of using the moon-magic system but jettisoning the Ansalon organization appeals to me.
This is correct, although there has been some fan speculation to placing the last Tower of High Sorcery somewhere on that continent. In any case, they don't have the Orders of High Sorcery there. I guess that means all Taladas wizards would be considered Renegades?
So Knights of Solamnia and those much later Takhisis knights are unknown on Taladas?
No Knights of Solamnia. The Roman-like Minotaur Empire sort of fills that role on Taladas. AFAIK also no Knights of Takhisis or Leginaires of Steel, though all of this is much closer to the Chaos War so who knows what happens after that? I have yet to read the Taladas Trilogy of novels to see if it has some clues (it is set in the Age of Mortals).

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:40 pm

Havard wrote:
NPCDave wrote:So there is the mage guild of the Towers of High Sorcery never existed on Taladas? The idea of using the moon-magic system but jettisoning the Ansalon organization appeals to me.
This is correct, although there has been some fan speculation to placing the last Tower of High Sorcery somewhere on that continent. In any case, they don't have the Orders of High Sorcery there. I guess that means all Taladas wizards would be considered Renegades?
From one point of view they might be seen as renegades. But if you take into account the fact that the Orders of High Sorcery are not enforcing membership of the three orders, that pretty much makes that irrelevant. If you look at this from the other end, these spellcasters have never been drawn into the Orders of High Sorcery. The same applies to spellcasters in many of the other parts of Krynn.

You have this pretty iconic theme tied to the Wizards of High Sorcery, but they are only really dominant on a single continent on a single planet. So I wonder how much of the "rules" are down to the will of the Moons of Magic and how much of the "rules" are down to the customs that the Orders of High Sorcery have built up over the years.
Havard wrote:
NPCDave wrote:So Knights of Solamnia and those much later Takhisis knights are unknown on Taladas?
No Knights of Solamnia. The Roman-like Minotaur Empire sort of fills that role on Taladas. AFAIK also no Knights of Takhisis or Leginaires of Steel, though all of this is much closer to the Chaos War so who knows what happens after that? I have yet to read the Taladas Trilogy of novels to see if it has some clues (it is set in the Age of Mortals).
I've read the Talidas Trillogy. It is well worth a read. I will read it again sometime. I don't really want to say much, as spoilers would be involved. (I even read a two line review that had spoilers.) But you could start a thread for the trilogy if you want to discuss it (or start a thread for each book). They do have some things in them that would be useful for gaming, but they also bring in some major changes.

I loved the novels, but the amount of changes from the original setup were a bit frustrating (as anything new would need to be designed from scratch - and the schedule of the novels and MWP's Dragonlance licence meant that there was no way this would get handled by a commercial gamebook). There is a lot of work involved in catching up to the later era. And considering this thread is about a 3e campaign for Taladas, that is both a conversion of old material to 3e and creation of new material.

I would have liked to have read a trilogy set in the time of the boxed set. Or one that ran alongside the events of Dragonlance Chronicles. It is a shame that there is not too much support for this continent.

Anyhoo, to get back to the point, the Minotaur League is the big military organisation for Taladas. It is very Roman-like, so that makes it a more retro-organisation than Ansalon's knighthoods. That is going to be a major change from the way that things work in Solamnia, but I think that Roman sourcebooks could be looked at, alongside Knightly Orders of Ansalon to get ideas on how to give Roman tropes the same sort of twists that the Knights of Solamnia have.
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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Havard » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:24 pm

Big Mac wrote:From one point of view they might be seen as renegades. But if you take into account the fact that the Orders of High Sorcery are not enforcing membership of the three orders, that pretty much makes that irrelevant. If you look at this from the other end, these spellcasters have never been drawn into the Orders of High Sorcery. The same applies to spellcasters in many of the other parts of Krynn.
I might be misremembering this, but I always thought there were some dangers to being a renegade wizard, possibly that practicing the magic of all three Moons would often result in madness?
Big Mac wrote:You have this pretty iconic theme tied to the Wizards of High Sorcery, but they are only really dominant on a single continent on a single planet. So I wonder how much of the "rules" are down to the will of the Moons of Magic and how much of the "rules" are down to the customs that the Orders of High Sorcery have built up over the years.
It is a fair question. Perhaps the Wizards of Taladas would have their own rules?
Big Mac wrote:Anyhoo, to get back to the point, the Minotaur League is the big military organisation for Taladas. It is very Roman-like, so that makes it a more retro-organisation than Ansalon's knighthoods. That is going to be a major change from the way that things work in Solamnia, but I think that Roman sourcebooks could be looked at, alongside Knightly Orders of Ansalon to get ideas on how to give Roman tropes the same sort of twists that the Knights of Solamnia have.
Pretty interesting idea to use Knightly Orders of Ansalon as inspiration for the Minotaur League. What is out there for Roman Empire type games in 3E? Perhaps the Rome Eternal book from Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas Line could be useful?

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by rabindranath72 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:58 pm

If you go by 3e rules, the moon alignments are irrelevant to wizards unless they take the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class, which can only be obtained by passing the Test. So effectively, Taladas behaves like a standard D&D setting, arcane magic-wise.

The danger of being a renegade consists in a negative relationship with the Conclave, which will try to find you out and force you to take the Test; also you won't be able to harness the full power of the moons.

This is one reason I mentioned before that Taladas works well as a "standard" D&D setting, since most of the stuff we associate with Dragonlance and which has specific rules in the DLCS book, simply don't exist on Taladas.

A cool aspect of Taladas are the Othlorx, which are simply implemented in 3e by simply changing the alignments of the dragons.

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:19 pm

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:From one point of view they might be seen as renegades. But if you take into account the fact that the Orders of High Sorcery are not enforcing membership of the three orders, that pretty much makes that irrelevant. If you look at this from the other end, these spellcasters have never been drawn into the Orders of High Sorcery. The same applies to spellcasters in many of the other parts of Krynn.
I might be misremembering this, but I always thought there were some dangers to being a renegade wizard, possibly that practicing the magic of all three Moons would often result in madness?
There was a danger to unregulated magic, during the historical event known as the Second Dragon War:
Dragoland Campaign Setting page 200 wrote:Three mages order the ground to swalow the dragons. Though the bests fall, thousands die as a result of magic going wild and causing catastrophes across the continent. In desperation, the three mages call upon the deities of magic, who had been waiting for such an occurrence. Knowing that magic would continue to run wild unless people are taught how to properly wield it, the gods of magic sweep the three mages and their tower into the Beyond, where they deities teach the mages the ways of high sorcery.
So there is a danger but the danger seems to be to the world, rather than to spellcasters themselves.

I know that the 3e Dragonlance Campaign Setting implies that Wizards of High Sorcery must be specialist wizards, specialising in one of the two schools of magic that are associated with their order. But that is a mistake, as it clashes with the ability of mages to switch from one school to another. Later MWP books state that 3e DL wizards can be generalist wizards too. So I think a wizard can technically cast magic from all six schools.

If there is a restriction on mixing spells, I didn't notice it.

As Rabindranath72 said, the biggest risk to wizards outside of the Orders of High Sorcery, is that they are branded renegades and hunted down. I think that is much less likely to happen outside of Ansalon. But there was a Dragon Highlord close to Chorane in the Chronicles Trillogy and I think he was a Wizard of the Black Robes. IIRC, he didn't even want to interact with the people of Chorane - wizards or not - and just wanted to support their enemies, so that they all got killed and he would be able to live there alone. I don't think the Orders attempt to police the other parts of Krynn. I think he was just acting on his own. (The WoHS probably would have treated him as a Renegade if he killed an entire nation.)
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:You have this pretty iconic theme tied to the Wizards of High Sorcery, but they are only really dominant on a single continent on a single planet. So I wonder how much of the "rules" are down to the will of the Moons of Magic and how much of the "rules" are down to the customs that the Orders of High Sorcery have built up over the years.
It is a fair question. Perhaps the Wizards of Taladas would have their own rules?
Most of the wizards of Taladas get no special mention. There is one rule, which I will come back to, in reply to Rabindranath72 further down in this post.

The one type of magic users that get special treatment are the Cha'asi mages (The Rulebook To Taladas pages 28-29). They practise an "ancient and nearly forgotten magic". They are all specialist wizards, but specialise in a bespoke Natural School of magic.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Anyhoo, to get back to the point, the Minotaur League is the big military organisation for Taladas. It is very Roman-like, so that makes it a more retro-organisation than Ansalon's knighthoods. That is going to be a major change from the way that things work in Solamnia, but I think that Roman sourcebooks could be looked at, alongside Knightly Orders of Ansalon to get ideas on how to give Roman tropes the same sort of twists that the Knights of Solamnia have.
Pretty interesting idea to use Knightly Orders of Ansalon as inspiration for the Minotaur League. What is out there for Roman Empire type games in 3E? Perhaps the Rome Eternal book from Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas Line could be useful?
What I was mostly suggesting, was that you could deconstruct 3rd Edition content from MWP, use the specific elements that would be appropriate to Roman-style military units, and replace the rest. Pages 19-23 of Knightly Orders of Ansalon cover mounted knights. Most of that could probably be raided and used for any mounted military, although the League's heavy cavalry is much more likely to have good horse than the League's light cavalry.

The Knightly Feats (pages 34-35) are mostly raidable.

The Legion of Steel might have elements to

I think that, with modification, any sort of Roman stuff (3rd Edition or otherwise) could probably be used to make the League a bit more three-dimen
rabindranath72 wrote:If you go by 3e rules, the moon alignments are irrelevant to wizards unless they take the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class, which can only be obtained by passing the Test. So effectively, Taladas behaves like a standard D&D setting, arcane magic-wise.
Not quite. There are rules on pages 6-7 of The Rulebook to Taladas that specifically make Moon Alignments have an effect on spellcasters in Taladas:
The Rulebook to Taladas page 6 wrote:Each wizard, whether a mage or a specialist, must choose one of the moons to guide his path. Each choice has ethical restrictions and concequences and is aliged to one of the three gods of alignment - good, neutrality or evil.
The three gods (and presumably the moons) are known by different names in Taladas:
  • Solinari is known as Solais, Soranus, Amekht-Mul, Ilman-Solri and Sokilrandimiquarthol,
  • Lunitari is known as Lunais, Yergas the Goddess of Night, Luita and Anasjovheerrthol and
  • Nuitari is known as Angomais, Neith, Malkari and Kaasromermagasthol.
The Orders of High Sorcery are not there, but the influence of the moons is:
The Rulebook to Taladas page 6-7 wrote:Although the wizards are not diviced into the orders of Ansalon, each is affected, upon attaining 4th level, by the phases of his chosen moon. The phase and alignment of the moon can increase or decrease the potency of the wizard's magic. The effects of the different moons, according to the phases and positions, are showed by the Moon Phase Effects and Moon Alignment Effects Tables. These are reprinted from the Dragonlance Adventures rulebook for your convinience. (High and Low Sanction are not used in Taladas to identify full and new moons.)
This actually seems to be a bit more integral to Taladas, than Ansalon, as the wizards do not seem to be offered the rogue option. And moon effects (from Solais, Lunais or Angomais) automatically kick in at 4th level.

It seems to be more of a religious thing, in Taladas, to me, where you pick a god of magic to follow and think nothing more of it. Ansalon seems to have more of a "Private Member's Club" aspect to its magic.

You could choose to ignore this rule, rather than convert it to 3e, but given that David "Zeb" Cook went to the trouble of setting up this system, I would probably be more inclined to keep it.

I would even roll this rule out to the entire planet, and the rest of Krynnspace, were it not for the fact that DLR1 Otherlands does different things in Chorane, Selasia and Watermere. I guess the fact that we know that we know that it is possible to gain arcane magic, without going via the Moons of Magic in Ansalon, means that it is technically possible to do that anywhere on Krynn.

I think the drastic "Krynn-changing-events" will also have a big change on things. In the era of the Time of the Dragon boxed set, it would be less logical to toss out Zeb Cook's rule. But in the Age of Mortals, when the moons all vanish, I would expect arcane spellcasting on Taladas to decline in a similar way to the way it declined on Ansalon. After that event, it would be more logical to look to the new type of sorcery that is introduced to Ansalon at that time for inspiration on what to do on Taladas. If you wanted to use standard wizards in that era, it might be more appropriate although I believe that Takhisis was attempting to secretly control the power of both arcane and divine spellcasting across Krynn at that time.

After that Age of Mortals "evil plan" is done with, I would guess that arcane magic would return to normal on Taladas.
rabindranath72 wrote:The danger of being a renegade consists in a negative relationship with the Conclave, which will try to find you out and force you to take the Test; also you won't be able to harness the full power of the moons.
I'm not sure what "force" was causing people to "choose" a god of magic in Time of the Dragon. I didn't seem to see anything that said what would happen if you did not pick a god. But there are no moon related effects for the first 3 levels, so I guess they just do not notice low-powered spellcasting.
rabindranath72 wrote:This is one reason I mentioned before that Taladas works well as a "standard" D&D setting, since most of the stuff we associate with Dragonlance and which has specific rules in the DLCS book, simply don't exist on Taladas.
The Rulebook to Taladas is very thin. It only has 48 pages. Some of that is Battlesystem rules, so you don't get the full benefit of the 48 pages. There are also a lot of Kits, which are presented in the form of half-page character sheets.

The book is very very rules light, but it does constantly refer people to Dragonlance Adventures. There is a lot of cultural stuff, from DLCS, that is not valid in Taladas, but there is also a lot of stuff connected to the gods, or specific DL races, that is. You even have an entire nation (Armach) settled by elven ships that got blown off course from Anslon. I would also assume (although I don't see it mentioned) that Taladas takes the bespoke cosmology from DLCS.

Taladas should be very different from Ansalon, but I think it should have more in common with the core values of mainstream Dragonlance than it has in common with other campaign settings.
rabindranath72 wrote:A cool aspect of Taladas are the Othlorx, which are simply implemented in 3e by simply changing the alignments of the dragons.
I would have loved to have seen more done with the Othlorx. The boxed set is called Time of the Dragon but I really don't see much done with Dragons in Taladas.

Considering the Orhlorx split away from other dragons over the issue of stolen eggs used to create draconians, I wonder if any of them would team up with rogue (neutral) draconians, to act as their guardians.
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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by rabindranath72 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:16 am

BigMac wrote:Not quite. There are rules on pages 6-7 of The Rulebook to Taladas that specifically make Moon Alignments have an effect on spellcasters in Taladas:
I know. That's why I specified "If you go by 3e rules." In the DLCS the prestige classes represent the communion with the moons necessary to harness their powers. You can be a WoHS without having the prestige class, but then you don't get any benefit.
I would probably do something similar for Taladas; I'd simply rename the prestige classes, perhaps as Follower of the Moon, and call it a day.
BigMac wrote:I'm not sure what "force" was causing people to "choose" a god of magic in Time of the Dragon. I didn't seem to see anything that said what would happen if you did not pick a god. But there are no moon related effects for the first 3 levels, so I guess they just do not notice low-powered spellcasting.
It's not mentioned as far as I know, but I think you cannot "not choose" to follow one of the gods. Once you have an alignment, you are implicitly a follower of that god by the simple fact that you are a wizard.

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Re: Which books for a Taladas 3E campaign?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:45 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Not quite. There are rules on pages 6-7 of The Rulebook to Taladas that specifically make Moon Alignments have an effect on spellcasters in Taladas:
I know. That's why I specified "If you go by 3e rules." In the DLCS the prestige classes represent the communion with the moons necessary to harness their powers. You can be a WoHS without having the prestige class, but then you don't get any benefit.
I would probably do something similar for Taladas; I'd simply rename the prestige classes, perhaps as Follower of the Moon, and call it a day.
This is one of the reasons why I would have wanted MWP to put out a Taladas hardback for 3e. The Time of the Dragon boxed set just does not follow the same logic as Dragonlance Adventures here, so it isn't a cut and dry thing.

In DLA, you have Wizards of High Sorcery that pretty much work like 3e Prestige Classes (and Knights of Solamnia that work that way too). So that converts over to 3e logically as PrCs. But in TotD you have wizards that do not join any sort organisation. They just don't get an option. The rules for the Moons of Magic automatically kick in at 4th level. There is no opting in or out. It just happens. To me, it seems that wizards on Taladas have been written to work a bit more like clerics.
rabindranath72 wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I'm not sure what "force" was causing people to "choose" a god of magic in Time of the Dragon. I didn't seem to see anything that said what would happen if you did not pick a god. But there are no moon related effects for the first 3 levels, so I guess they just do not notice low-powered spellcasting.
It's not mentioned as far as I know, but I think you cannot "not choose" to follow one of the gods. Once you have an alignment, you are implicitly a follower of that god by the simple fact that you are a wizard.
Maybe. Maybe you loose all spells above 3rd level if you don't cooperate. Or maybe you don't get a choice and you just hook up with the moon that works for you.

I think it is further complicated by section called The Gods of Taladas on page 39 of The Rule Book To Taladas which says: "Finally the three moons of Krynn - Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari - are not considered gods proper. They are revered as elemental forces of great power, but have no worshipers or priests of their own."

I actually think this is a radically different system to DLA. It is more like a watered down PrC that turns into a substitution level for the level where you would need to take the Test of High Sorcery. And when you get to the Age of Mortals the system would get tossed out of the window.

It is a bit of a mess. Your renamed PrC might be one way to go, but I've got nagging doubts.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
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