TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

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Re: TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

Postby AxesnOrcs » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:41 pm

Havard wrote:
shesheyan wrote:
Lord Sheriff Takari wrote:while I've min/maxed myself many times, I've never let it overshadow the Roleplay integral to a night of gaming and thoroughly enjoy playing a night where the only reason I pick up my Dice is to move them out of my way to eat dinner everyone else in my group is out to enjoy the night sitting around the dinner table surrounded by friends for a night of fun we don't play to win, we play to enjoy the game and make sure our DM is also enjoying it by challenging us


Excellent. You are correct, there is nothing wrong with optimizing per se. The problem stems from the attitude of some individuals.


Agreed. I don't think there are many experienced gamers who aren't at least aware that some combinations are more useful than others and will make choices based on that. The problem is as you say the attitide about it.

I also think that the article has a point that if you decide to stop "playing to win" you could discover new amazing ways to have fun. If you are there just to win, why not play a board game or a video game instead?

-Havard

I have a hypothesis that a lot of the "play to win" RPGers, as well as other games that strongly skew towards social and noncompetitive, are the sort that are bad at games intended to be competitive, which isn't a judgement on them except when they ruin other players' fun.
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Re: TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

Postby zontoxira » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:45 pm

AxesnOrcs wrote: I have a hypothesis that a lot of the "play to win" RPGers, as well as other games that strongly skew towards social and noncompetitive, are the sort that are bad at games intended to be competitive, which isn't a judgement on them except when they ruin other players' fun.


I'd love to hear more about that.
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Re: TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

Postby Havard » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:12 pm

shesheyan wrote:
Havard wrote:I also think that the article has a point that if you decide to stop "playing to win" you could discover new amazing ways to have fun. If you are there just to win, why not play a board game or a video game instead?


Correct. But some min/maxers are toxic. They enjoy acrimony, conflict and imposing their point of view on others. Gaming bullies. They are not there for the game. They are at the table to impose their ego. I've met a few over the years...


If they are reall assholes, then the only sollution is to not play with them. But I think its worth investigating first just in case they are gamers who just haven't understood there is a different way of playing and enjoying this game as well. If we can bring some of them over to the light side then the world will be a better place :)

-Havard

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Re: TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

Postby shesheyan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:33 pm

AxesnOrcs wrote:I have a hypothesis that a lot of the "play to win" RPGers, as well as other games that strongly skew towards social and noncompetitive, are the sort that are bad at games intended to be competitive, which isn't a judgement on them except when they ruin other players' fun.


Hum... from my experience as a wargamer I would say min/maxers in RPGs are the same with miniature wargames. They actually trive in a wargames environment like 40K, Age of Sigmar, Warmachines, Infinity, X-Wing, in which the win-at-all-cost-attitude is encouraged. But they don't perform well with casual wargamers that like asymmetrical missions, historical reenactment games, or narrative campaigns. Probably because there is a role-play portion and they simply can't use their win-on-turn-one-uber-list.
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Re: TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

Postby AxesnOrcs » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:09 am

Most of the play-to-win player's I've had to deal with were either demonstrably bad at competitive games, or refused to play them. I do make a distinction between minmaxers and play-to-win, while there is overlap, a vast majority of minmaxers that aren't out to play-to-win are content to optimize their character and not force everyone to play their way. Most play-to-winners are minmaxers, but I don't think most minmaxers are the to the walls play-to-win.
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Re: TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

Postby shesheyan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:50 pm

AxesnOrcs wrote:Most of the play-to-win player's I've had to deal with were either demonstrably bad at competitive games, or refused to play them. I do make a distinction between minmaxers and play-to-win, while there is overlap, a vast majority of minmaxers that aren't out to play-to-win are content to optimize their character and not force everyone to play their way. Most play-to-winners are minmaxers, but I don't think most minmaxers are the to the walls play-to-win.


Yes, there is a fringe of wargame players who think they will win because the printed and play the winning list of the last big international tournament. But they forget that playing wargames requires skill (and luck on the rolls at the right time). They get very upset and sometimes rage-quit the game before it ends when they see that they will loose. Since they use the best list they are confronted with there lack the skill at the game...
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Re: TTRPG Advice: Stop Playing to “win the game”

Postby AxesnOrcs » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:37 pm

shesheyan wrote:
AxesnOrcs wrote:Most of the play-to-win player's I've had to deal with were either demonstrably bad at competitive games, or refused to play them. I do make a distinction between minmaxers and play-to-win, while there is overlap, a vast majority of minmaxers that aren't out to play-to-win are content to optimize their character and not force everyone to play their way. Most play-to-winners are minmaxers, but I don't think most minmaxers are the to the walls play-to-win.


Yes, there is a fringe of wargame players who think they will win because the printed and play the winning list of the last big international tournament. But they forget that playing wargames requires skill (and luck on the rolls at the right time). They get very upset and sometimes rage-quit the game before it ends when they see that they will loose. Since they use the best list they are confronted with there lack the skill at the game...


That sounds a lot like bad Magic players.
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