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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:57 pm 
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GMWestermeyer wrote:
So I just read the passage in Dawn of Night. Interesting, but definitely more proof that modern FR, or at least many FR writers, do not think the Spelljammer cosmography applies. I couldn't see anything to indicate what year this was supposed to take place in.


Yeah, there was definitely a missed opportunity there to mention crystal spheres and so on. Vhostym believes the stars are distant suns, around which planets rotate.

The book must take place around 1373 DR, since Vhostym's plan caused a meterorite strike known as the Rain of Fire (since he drew one of the Tears of Selune into Toril's atmosphere). According to The Grand History of the Realms, this occured on Marpenoth 26, 1373.

Sorry for posting twice in a row rather than combining the two posts, by the way. I have another response above this one.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:38 am 
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Awesome, thanks, Van!

I gotta say, I wish you'd do a timeline for PS similar to the one I've done for SJ. :) If you don't, I might take your work, properly credited, and produce one myself someday. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:07 am 
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GMWestermeyer wrote:
Awesome, thanks, Van!

I gotta say, I wish you'd do a timeline for PS similar to the one I've done for SJ. :) If you don't, I might take your work, properly credited, and produce one myself someday. :)


This thread is about the closest I've seen to a Planescape timeline. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:02 am 
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night_druid wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Awesome, thanks, Van!

I gotta say, I wish you'd do a timeline for PS similar to the one I've done for SJ. :) If you don't, I might take your work, properly credited, and produce one myself someday. :)


This thread is about the closest I've seen to a Planescape timeline. :)


Yep, I got it from him. :)

One of the things slowing down jammers, and driving my renewed work on the timeline, is the 'gap.' In my timeline, there is a gap of from roughly -5,000 OC to 1,000 OC with only one or two events, a veritable Dark Ages! I'm hoping my expanded timeline, with PS and Mystaran events added, will fill things out better.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:06 pm 
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GMWestermeyer wrote:
One of the things slowing down jammers, and driving my renewed work on the timeline, is the 'gap.' In my timeline, there is a gap of from roughly -5,000 OC to 1,000 OC with only one or two events, a veritable Dark Ages! I'm hoping my expanded timeline, with PS and Mystaran events added, will fill things out better.


I ran into the same issue; -5,000 to 1,000 is a fairly "boring" period of time. Zivilyn has helped out there :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:28 am 
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ripvanwormer wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Rip, I'm looking over the Planescape stuff, which I think needs to be integrated with the SJ timeline. But how do you know when the various PS products occured? The Sigil book establishes it was set in 127 HK, but what about the other books? How do we know what HK year On Hallowed Ground, or Tales from the Infinite Staircase are set?


I go by publishing date. The Factol's Manifesto and In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil were both 1995, and there are contextual hints that one real-world year represents one year passing in Planescape after that (the Planescape Campaign Setting, published in 1994, takes place in the same year as The Factol's Manifesto and In the Cage, since Rowan Darkwood has been in Sigil for a year in both).


Do you have a page # for "In the Cgae" saying Rowan has been in Sigil less then a year? I can't find it. :( Does he appear at all in the original Planescape boxed set?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:35 am 
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GMWestermeyer wrote:
Does he appear at all in the original Planescape boxed set?

Sigil and Beyond - p.70-73, "The two most important people in Sigil".

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:07 pm 
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GMWestermeyer wrote:
Do you have a page # for "In the Cgae" saying Rowan has been in Sigil less then a year? I can't find it. :( Does he appear at all in the original Planescape boxed set?


Oh, I meant that both The Factol's Manifesto and Planescape Campaign Setting said that Darkwood had been in Sigil for less than a year.

"About a year ago he decided to make the City of Doors his home." - The Factol's Manifesto, page 61.

"He's only been in the Cage for about a year." - Planescape Campaign Setting, "Sigil and Beyond," page 73.

Well, okay, about a year, not less than. Anyway, that implies that they take place during the same year.

We know The Factol's Manifesto and In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil take place in the same year because on page 71 of The Factol's Manifesto it notes that Hashkar has been "factol of the Guvners for 127 years," while on page 12 of In the Cage it states that "The current date is the 127th year of
Facto1 Hashkar’s reign."


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:08 am 
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ripvanwormer wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Do you have a page # for "In the Cgae" saying Rowan has been in Sigil less then a year? I can't find it. :( Does he appear at all in the original Planescape boxed set?


Oh, I meant that both The Factol's Manifesto and Planescape Campaign Setting said that Darkwood had been in Sigil for less than a year.

"About a year ago he decided to make the City of Doors his home." - The Factol's Manifesto, page 61.

"He's only been in the Cage for about a year." - Planescape Campaign Setting, "Sigil and Beyond," page 73.

Well, okay, about a year, not less than. Anyway, that implies that they take place during the same year.

We know The Factol's Manifesto and In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil take place in the same year because on page 71 of The Factol's Manifesto it notes that Hashkar has been "factol of the Guvners for 127 years," while on page 12 of In the Cage it states that "The current date is the 127th year of
Facto1 Hashkar’s reign."


Excellent, excellent! I know I seem anal, but nailing down these details is really important to me, and I'm just not as conversant with PS as you are, quickly skimming the books and checking TOCs and indexes just can't always find those fine, obscure, but important details. :)

I'm making some sweet progress. :)

edit: Thanks to you!!! Many thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:19 am 
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Okay... here is what I have so far for the Planescape connections. I just need page numbers for the Planeswalker Handbook. :)

Quote:
As with Spelljammer, TSR did not provide a detailed chronology for the Planescape setting. That makes establishing a chronological link for Planescape products and events and Spelljammer products and events problematic. Rip Van Wormer has done a great deal of work on Planescape’s chronology and I generally have followed his lead (I am hoping to convince him to do a timeline like this one for Planescape, in fact).

There is a calendar system introduced In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil; years are counted according to the reigns of the factols of the Fraternity of Order. In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil was set in the 127th year of Factol Hashkar’s reign (p12). The Factol's Manifesto is also set specifically in the 127th year of Factol Hashkar’s reign (p71). Rowan Darkwood (Factol of the Fated) has been in Sigil for about a year in both The Factol's Manifesto (p61) and the Planescape Campaign Setting (p73). So we have a specific date of 127 Ha (Hashkar’s Reign) for these three foundational Planescape products.

But most Planescape products do not have a specific date provided for them. The Factol's Manifesto and In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil were both published in 1995, and there are suggestions in later works that in Planescape one year of publishing equals a year of time in the setting. For example, in Faction War, published in 1998, Rowan Darkwood has been in Sigil for "a few years" (p34). And in The Factol's Manifesto, the Great Upheaval is said to have taken place "close to 630 years ago" (p81) and in Faction War it took place "some 630-odd years ago" (p114).

The Planescape module Tales from the Infinite Staircase (p8-9) crosses over with the Forgotten Realms module For Duty and Deity (p5). Tales from the Infinite Staircase was published in 1998, and apparently takes place just prior to the Faction War (also published in 1998), both these products are most likely set in 130 Ha which in turn coincides with Toril’s 1370 DR.

As mentioned above, On Hallowed Ground states that the Time of Troubles occurred in the Forgotten Realms just over twelve years ago (p168). The Time of Troubles was in 1358 DR, so that would establish On Hallowed Ground as occurring in 1370 DR. It also states that the events of the Dragonlance novel, Dragons of Summer Flame, occurred recently (p164). That novel is set in 383 AC. That would link 1370 DR and 383 AC and 130 Ha. Using this as an intersection 1361 DR would correspond to 374 AC. On Hallowed Ground was published in 1996, which would tend to indicate it was set in 128 Ha and it certainly predates Faction War. This conflicts with the Tales From the Infinite Staircase date. But I prefer to assume On Hallowed Ground is essentially dateless, as the Dragonlance & Forgotten Realms dates are so out of sync, clearly inspired by the books that were then being produced for the settings without considering how the chronologies should intersect. Dragonlance was beset by chronological jumps in the 1990s when the 5th Age products came out, advancing in time far more quickly than the other TSR campaigns of the time.

Die Vecna Die! Provides further evidence in favor of 1370 DR and 130 Ha, as in Tales from the Infinite Staircase. In that module, Vecna enters Sigil not long after the Faction War (130 Ha), and returns as a lesser god to Oerth. According to the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, set in 591 CY, this occurred ‘recently’ (pp13, 186). This links 1370 DR with 130 Ha and 590 CY.
Dragonlance, Dark Sun, and Planescape are linked by the Planewalker's Handbook, set in 128 Ha (p53); the Chaos War on Krynn (383 AC/0 SC) and the events of the Dark Sun adventure Black Spine (FY 6) are referred to as recent events.(p????) This might be a trump date for Dragonlance or Planescape campaigns, but since the Spelljammer novel Beyond the Moons specifically contradicts it for a Spelljammer campaign we can ignore this link.

This leaves us with 130 Ha linked to 1370 DR, or 121 Ha linked to 1361 DR.


Comments welcome :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:45 pm 
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We know for sure that Die Vecna Die! takes place in 591 CY not just because the LIving Greyhawk Gazetteer describes its events as recent, but because in the Greyhawk Players Guide (which is also set in 591 CY), the events had not yet happened.

The Greyhawk Players Guide, published in 1998, identifies the current date on page 2 ("we'll update the history of the Flanaess to the current campaign year of 591 CY"). Vecna appears on the list of demigods on page 20. The events of Die Vecna Die involve the demigod Vecna briefly becoming a greater deity and ending the book a lesser deity (page 150: "He's free of the prison plane that held him and, despite the liberation of Iuz, still a god." He's described as a lesser deity in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 186, which notes, "He recently became a lesser god after freeing himself from an extradimensional prison.").

At least one other Planescape accessory does indicate that the current date is after the Summer of Chaos on Krynn. A Guide to the Ethereal Plane (1998) describes Krynn's Border Ethereal on page 16: "Chant is that this world fell under the sway of some chaotic power. No one knows if that's the dark of it, but fact is, a body can't reach Krynn any longer. Many bloods've tried, but they all return rattling their bone-boxes about ether gaps and creatures born of chaos. If that's true, then the Border area around Krynn's been blocked. A body'd do well to stay away." And yes, Bruce Cordell does overdo the cant in that book. So while I completely understand leaning toward Spelljammer sources for a Spelljammer timeline, it may be worth noting that On Hallowed Ground and The Planewalker's Handbook aren't aberrations in this regard. Just more to ignore, I guess.

You left some page numbers in The Planewalker's Handbook with question marks, so I'll fill them in here.

Page 32: "Recently, the githyanki attempted to reopen one of the few permanent portals to this world from the Astral, but their efforts were thwarted by the natives..."

Page 33: "Here's the latest chant. Recent upheavals on Krynn - involving native powers and invading fiends - make this an unstable world to visit at best. Chances are, a planewalker popping through a portal'll be taken for some leftover fiend and slain on sight. Just goes to show that things on the Prime sometimes change as quickly as they do on the planes."

Indeed they do. So portals to Krynn were unstable in 128 Ha, but completely nonfunctioning by 130 Ha. What this says about the timeline of what was later revealed as Takhisis's theft of the world I'll leave to someone else to figure out. Or I guess the same events could take place thirty years later, or whatever the exact number is according to the Spelljammer timeline.

It might be worth noting that In the Cage and The Factol's Manifesto, both published in 1995, are set in 127 Ha, while The Planewalker's Handbook, published in 1996, was set in 128 Ha, further supporting the idea that in Planescape the timeline advanced by one year per real-world publishing year from 1995 to 1998.


Last edited by ripvanwormer on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:01 pm 
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So many thanks for the comments!

ripvanwormer wrote:
We know for sure that Die Vecna Die! takes place in 591 CY not just because the LIving Greyhawk Gazetteer describes its events as "recent," but because in the Greyhawk Players Guide (which is also set in 591 CY), the events had not yet happened.

Citations: The Greyhawk Players Guide, published in 1998, identifies the current date on page 2. Vecna appears on the list of demigods on page 20. The events of Die Vecna Die involve the demigod Vecna briefly becoming a greater deity and ending the book a lesser deity (page 150: "He's free of the prison plane that held him and, despite the liberation of Iuz, still a god." He's described as a lesser deity in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 186, which notes, "He recently became a lesser god after freeing himself from an extradimensional prison.").


Hmmm... Not sure if I'll add that or not. I don't think it countermands what I wrote, I just wish I owned Die Vecna Die so I could judge it better. The one year discrepancy is just too minor to sweat here. Especially since the Player's Guide might just describe what players know, not reality. There would be a period in 591 where he was a demigod before becoming known to be a lesser god. :)

ripvanwormer wrote:
At least one other Planescape accessory does indicate that the current date is after the Summer of Chaos on Krynn. A Guide to the Ethereal Plane (1998) describes Krynn's Border Ethereal on page 16: "Chant is that this world fell under the sway of some chaotic power. No one knows if that's the dark of it, but fact is, a body can't reach Krynn any longer. Many bloods've tried, but they all return rattling their bone-boxes about ether gaps and creatures born of chaos. If that's true, then the Border area around Krynn's been blocked. A body'd do well to stay away." And yes, Bruce Cordell does overdo the cant in that book.


Well, time might be different in the Ethereal. Ravenloft is an Ethereal demiplane and time acts weird there. And if publication date and this note on p16 is all that ties it down chronologically, no problem. :) I have this one, so I can read it more carefully to see if it matters.

ripvanwormer wrote:
So while I completely understand leaning toward Spelljammer sources for a Spelljammer timeline, it may be worth noting that On Hallowed Ground and The Planewalker's Handbook aren't aberrations in this regard. Just more to ignore, I guess.


Not leaning, SJ products automatically trump other products if there is a conflict re: the SJ timeline. I knew conflicts would occur, and this made the most sense to me. Especially since the Krynn time sync is so specific in the first SJ novel, which is set on Krynn. DL really is the outlier here, they leaped way forward and messed with time anyway, starting in the Legends series. And then DL's sphere disappears.

So, for me, the SJ timeline actually makes by far the most sense even if I didn't have the 'SJ trump' policy. For a PS timeline, I think PS trumps would make more sense.

ripvanwormer wrote:
You left some page numbers in The Planewalker's Handbook with question marks, so I'll fill them in here.


Many thanks!

'recently' is such a vague term... it helps a lot. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:12 pm 
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GMWestermeyer wrote:
Hmmm... Not sure if I'll add that or not. I don't think it countermands what I wrote, I just wish I owned Die Vecna Die so I could judge it better. The one year discrepancy is just too minor to sweat here. Especially since the Player's Guide might just describe what players know, not reality. There would be a period in 591 where he was a demigod before becoming known to be a lesser god. :)


Yes, that's what I meant. I saw it as confirmation rather than as a discrepancy. Living Greyhawk Gazetteer clearly takes place later in the year than the Greyhawk Player's Guide, and Die Vecna Die! definitely also takes place in 591 CY, sandwiched between those other books.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:16 am 
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How do we know Meredoth is from Mystara? I can't find a reference for that...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:17 am 
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From Meredoth's description in Domains of Dread:

"Meredoth lived on the world of Mystara (from the MYSTARA campaign setting). There, he was granted a barony in the Alphatian province of Norwold."


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:27 am 
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ripvanwormer wrote:
From Meredoth's description in Domains of Dread:

"Meredoth lived on the world of Mystara (from the MYSTARA campaign setting). There, he was granted a barony in the Alphatian province of Norwold."



Thanks, page #? I'm afraid I stopped collecting RL material with the 1994 boxed set.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:33 am 
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Can someone else handle the page number, hopefully?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:46 pm 
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P. 79.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:53 am 
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Thanks!!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:45 pm 
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So, I'm using First Quest as the primary link, backed up by some Planescape products, for my SJ timeline getting Mystara in sync with the other spheres.

As a note, since Spelljammer is the point of my timeline, Spelljammer connections trump Planescape or Ravenloft connections.

Quote:
Mystara/Spelljammer

Mystara was, for most of its existence, not part of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons multiverse as originally described in the Player’s Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide. It was the setting instead for the Dungeon & Dragons game, and grew from the module X1 Isle of Dread, which sketched out the world, and was included in all of the 1980 Dungeons & Dragons: Expert Sets. In 1994 TSR converted Mystara to the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons system and subsequently made some minor attempts to add it to the multiverse setting.

In Domains of Dread the Dark Lord Meredoth is said to come from the Alphatian province of Norwold, arriving in 635 of the Barovian calander. (p79) But Norwold was not colonized by Alphatia until 919 AC according to Dawn of the Emperors (Bk III, p7). This would put Mystara wildly out of sync with the other campaign settings, and can be discounted as an example of Ravenloft’s famous mists transferring their victims through time as well as drawing them across planes.

There are some Planescape/Mystaran cross-overs. The Planewalker's Handbook, set in 128 Ha (p53), describes the Alphatian Empire as “fallen” (p33). We know the Alphatian Empire disappeared from the surface of Mystara in 1009 AC as depicted in Wrath of the Immortals (p??). Additionally, Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, set in 128 Ha, describes a Shadow Elf, Farrow, as an inhabitant of Sigil (p32). Farrow is spying in the Great School of Glantri when a Glantrian mage forcibly sends him to Sigil through a gate. It is unclear how long Farrow has been in Sigil, but certainly a few years. This provides a broad link between current time in Planescape and Mystara.

There is an equally vague, yet direct, link between Mystara and Spelljammer. The introductory Advanced Dungeons & Dragons boxed set First Quest includes a Spelljammer adventure in which the antagonists are heading for the Rock of Bral (AdvBk, pp. 45-54). Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure is contemporary with First Quest (p??) and is set in 1012 AC (this aligns with Poor Wizard’s Almanac III, also set in 1012 AC and published in 1994 like Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure and First Quest. There is no indication that the Rock as mentioned is not contemporary with its description in SJR5 Rock of Bral, which is set in 5049 OC. This fits with the Planescape links above, as the fall of Alphatia in 1009 AC would coincide with 124 Ha.

So we have 1012 AC linked to 5049 OC, which is 1367 DR. That would make 1361 DR equal to 1006 AC.


I'm posting this in the Capt Blotamus thread as well. :) Here, its for broader timeline discussion, there it is for specific First Quest discussion. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Dang, I was hoping for some feedback on that bit. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:08 am 
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GMWestermeyer wrote:
There is no indication that the Rock as mentioned is not contemporary with its description in SJR5 Rock of Bral, which is set in 5049 OC.


This seemed the weakest part of your reasoning to me, since it struck me as odd to think that the Spelljammer setting stayed still while the other settings advanced in chronology. But it didn't seem so weak that it was worth commenting on; setting it in 5049 OC/1009 AC/124 Hashkar fits the clues we've been given well enough, after all. My own synchronization was only a year off, since I used Joshuan's Almanac instead of The Poor Wizard's Almanac III; I didn't realize that that series skipped a year of Mystara's time between 1994 and 1995. Given that your sources fit with Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure and First Quest, it seems smarter to go that route.

But you wanted feedback, so that's what I think! Apart from that, I have no complaints.

This fan-made timeline placed the fall of Meredoth in 921 AC.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:58 am 
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ripvanwormer wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:
There is no indication that the Rock as mentioned is not contemporary with its description in SJR5 Rock of Bral, which is set in 5049 OC.


This seemed the weakest part of your reasoning to me, since it struck me as odd to think that the Spelljammer setting stayed still while the other settings advanced in chronology. But it didn't seem so weak that it was worth commenting on; setting it in 5049 OC/1009 AC/124 Hashkar fits the clues we've been given well enough, after all. My own synchronization was only a year off, since I used Joshuan's Almanac instead of The Poor Wizard's Almanac III; I didn't realize that that series skipped a year of Mystara's time between 1994 and 1995. Given that your sources fit with Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure and First Quest, it seems smarter to go that route.

But you wanted feedback, so that's what I think! Apart from that, I have no complaints.


I appreciate the thoughts! :) I understand your point, especially since Mystara is notorious for the one year = one year deal. SJ just never had any consistent handle on chronology, no attention paid to it at all. If there was any sense that time had advanced I'd go with it but for the default is stasis. :)

Now I am working on the La Terre link ups. :)


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:12 pm 
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I concur with the stasis default. In fact, I always got frustrated with the established worlds feeling a need to progress the timeline - it makes it almost impossible to have a significant long-term campaign where your PCs actually have a significant effect on the world. They're either overshadowed by NPC actions, or their actions make the campaign world deviate from the "official" timeline. So I don't use the existing settings.

For SJ, the problem goes away. After all, the vast amount of actual time is spent flying between planets. When a ship visits Toril, you can have the ship arrive at whatever time period you want - pre-Time of Troubles, post-Time of troubles, or after the 4E time skip. As long as you're consistent, it isn't too much of a problem.

Of course, generating an overall chronology where the actions of forces from one crystal sphere affect others (e.g., the Unhuman Wars, Under the Dark Fist, etc.) is important. And figuring out what events have been happening within a certain crystal sphere (such as Realmspace) can be important so that the NPCs will be reacting to the events when the PCs' ship arrives.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Hey folks, don't have time to dig through all of this thread so if any of this is redundant please ignore it. Will play catch up over the weekend.

In the meantime here are some pertinent links to Planescape dates:

Rip's Planescape Timeline that he made for us on Planewalker is the one I use as my base. Like Paul he has a desire for canon only, whcih I appreciate. It can be found here: http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia ... e-timeline

This one looks fantastic, but I've not had a chance to really sort through it. At the end it incorporates material that we created on Planewalker to cover the post Faction War era. http://livingsigil.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... beginning/

Then, for amusement, it my growing consolidated timeline of the Planejammer Campaigns. It uses Pauls original combined timeline as a base with material slowly being added in for Dark Sun, Ghostwalk (completed), Ravenloft, Planescape, and Golarion as well as the changes to cannon wrought by our past nine campaigns. http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/ ... l-timeline

Hope that helps. Will try to get my hands dirty with this later. If this gig I'm waiting on comes through I'll have a lot more time for gaming stuff!

_________________
DungeonMasterLoki aka George "Loki" Williams

SavageMojo(Community Manager/Lead Pathfinder Developer) http://savagemojo.com
Pathfinder RPG Community on Google Plus (Owner) https://plus.google.com/communities/109 ... 4435835324
Planewalker (Manager) http://www.planewalker.com


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