[Think Tank] Mystara 2300 meets Thorn's Mystara

[Chimpman]

Pretty interesting. My original idea for the Hags of Dymrak was that they would have some connection to the Dark Court of the Fey (Winter Court?). Could/Does a similar connection exist with Grondheim?

Yeah, this is similar to my own thoughts as well, though I don't have anything really solid yet. I see the "Troll Queen" as some form of dark fey (though not necessarily associated with Winter). The more I think about Grondheim, the more I think of it as a nation of giants ruled over by an Oni/ogre magi type noble caste (which is how I envision what I'm calling the "trolls" of this era). The "trolls" have the ability to take on the form of a pleasing humanoid, so most mortals would not know their true form... at least not until it's too late

[Havard]

Pretty interesting. My original idea for the Hags of Dymrak was that they would have some connection to the Dark Court of the Fey (Winter Court?). Could/Does a similar connection exist with Grondheim?

Yeah, this is similar to my own thoughts as well, though I don't have anything really solid yet. I see the "Troll Queen" as some form of dark fey (though not necessarily associated with Winter). The more I think about Grondheim, the more I think of it as a nation of giants ruled over by an Oni/ogre magi type noble caste (which is how I envision what I'm calling the "trolls" of this era). The "trolls" have the ability to take on the form of a pleasing humanoid, so most mortals would not know their true form... at least not until it's too late

Interesting. It would be interesting to see if any of this could be connected to the Kingdom of Annwn as detailed in this thread.

-Havard

[Chimpman]

Interesting. It would be interesting to see if any of this could be connected to the Kingdom of Annwn as detailed in this thread.

I'm going to have to look this over again and see what connections I can make!

[Chimpman]

Hey Rob, have you ever read the Black Vessel (the Savage Coast novel)? I just picked it up recently and finished reading it this morning. Although I was never really impressed with the other Mystara Novels (I read Knight of Karameikos, and then part of the next in the series before I put them down), not only id the Black Vessel a great story, but I think it has a lot of ideas that you could use in Thorn's world.

Black Vessel Spoilers below:
The Black Vessel was an obsidian container with silver symbols embedded just below the surface, designed to hold some malevolent force. It struck me that this could really be tied into the Blackmoorian craft of creating warforged. The Black Vessel itself could be the Nithian version of the craft - modified and diluted.

They also saw another obsidian hutaakan crypt, that the hutaakans of the Savage Coast believed housed one of their ancient heroes - waiting inside the crypt for the appointed time that they would once again enter the world. This might also suggest that there are other such vessels (containing ancient heroes/villains) scattered throughout the planet.

[RobJN]

Hey Rob, have you ever read the Black Vessel (the Savage Coast novel)? I just picked it up recently and finished reading it this morning. Although I was never really impressed with the other Mystara Novels (I read Knight of Karameikos, and then part of the next in the series before I put them down), not only id the Black Vessel a great story, but I think it has a lot of ideas that you could use in Thorn's world.

Black Vessel Spoilers below:
The Black Vessel was an obsidian container with silver symbols embedded just below the surface, designed to hold some malevolent force. It struck me that this could really be tied into the Blackmoorian craft of creating warforged. The Black Vessel itself could be the Nithian version of the craft - modified and diluted.

They also saw another obsidian hutaakan crypt, that the hutaakans of the Savage Coast believed housed one of their ancient heroes - waiting inside the crypt for the appointed time that they would once again enter the world. This might also suggest that there are other such vessels (containing ancient heroes/villains) scattered throughout the planet.

I read the Black Vessel a while back -- shortly after I got married, if I remember rightly I hadn't even thought about the connections to Thorn's Mystara but yes-- this would work very very well.

And I'll heartily agree that it was the best written of the Mystaran novels. The Penhalligon trilogy was fairly good. Dark Knight and the Dragonlord trilogy (of which I couldn't even finish the first book...) just left a bad taste in my mouth. Hence my desire to write my own Mystaran tale that could do the setting justice (plus a few extras....)

I'll have to see if I can dig up my copy of the Black Vessel and give it another quick read. Things Nithian and Hutaakan are all coming up in the current section of the Chronicle that I'm working on.....

[Chimpman]

Cool. And of course, I'm interested in taking these kind of artifacts and working my way backward for BC 2300. The Nithians are a bit outside of that time period, but I figure if they had that kind of magical knowledge/technology available, then perhaps the reason is that they were able to reverse engineer it from some earlier civilization.

I need to start thinking about how the evolution (or de-evolution ) of those kinds of artifacts would have taken place. If the Progeny of the twins was the pinnacle of this technology, then what other lesser forms could it take. The dwarven art of Soulforging would have been one of those forms. I'm also thinking that the brothers Simm and Koresh Teyd might also have gotten a hold of some of this technology - enabling them to transfer their own consciousness into the bodies of their own descendants.

The Nithian version of this technology - taking the essence/soul of an individual and transferring it into a more static form, could have other applications. This could be used as a prison (as in the story) or perhaps even as a form of stasis (hopefully with another "mobile" vessel waiting when the entity is released).

If the purpose of a black dragonstone is to capture/entrap an entity, then perhaps that could form the basis for a sort of control mechanism. This could be a controlling entity embedded in the gem which would have the ability to be placed in different "vehicles" or "bodies". This is very similar to the way that you portray demonic possession, but it need not be limited to the demonic. Perhaps this was the way that Blackmoor created "artificial" intelligences to control their technologies - though they wouldn't really be artificial... they would be "transfered intelligences".

[RobJN]

Cool. And of course, I'm interested in taking these kind of artifacts and working my way backward for BC 2300. The Nithians are a bit outside of that time period, but I figure if they had that kind of magical knowledge/technology available, then perhaps the reason is that they were able to reverse engineer it from some earlier civilization.

I need to start thinking about how the evolution (or de-evolution ) of those kinds of artifacts would have taken place. If the Progeny of the twins was the pinnacle of this technology, then what other lesser forms could it take. The dwarven art of Soulforging would have been one of those forms. I'm also thinking that the brothers Simm and Koresh Teyd might also have gotten a hold of some of this technology - enabling them to transfer their own consciousness into the bodies of their own descendants.

The Nithian version of this technology - taking the essence/soul of an individual and transferring it into a more static form, could have other applications. This could be used as a prison (as in the story) or perhaps even as a form of stasis (hopefully with another "mobile" vessel waiting when the entity is released).

If the purpose of a black dragonstone is to capture/entrap an entity, then perhaps that could form the basis for a sort of control mechanism. This could be a controlling entity embedded in the gem which would have the ability to be placed in different "vehicles" or "bodies". This is very similar to the way that you portray demonic possession, but it need not be limited to the demonic. Perhaps this was the way that Blackmoor created "artificial" intelligences to control their technologies - though they wouldn't really be artificial... they would be "transfered intelligences".

Black dragonstones are often likened to "batteries," as the trapped entities are used by the shrikes to power their powers in combat... The dwarves of the Glittering Realm have found a way to use them to animate corpses through quasi-electrical means. As to how those bodies are controlled.... well, we'll be getting to that in the Chronicle

Blue dragonstones house intelligences (though not souls) of past sirens, the consciousness being imprinted into the crystalline matrix. Pyrklist calls them "Oracle stones," since they are capable of outside communication. Could they (through some reverse-engineered process) be used to take imprints of other consciousnesses, in effect becoming "artificial intelligences"? Blue dragonstones were a rather late addition/discovery in Blackmoor, and their use was not fully explored (what with the wars going on and all; as the stones did not have any outward weaponizable effects, their study was put on the back burner)

[agathokles]

Reading the soulforging bits, the Dark Elves of the Northern Reaches Gazetteer suddenly came back to my mind. Do you have any plans for them? They might be pre- or post-GRoF, of course, but if they were post-GRoF, they'd still be gone by the end of this era.

GP

[Chimpman]

Reading the soulforging bits, the Dark Elves of the Northern Reaches Gazetteer suddenly came back to my mind. Do you have any plans for them? They might be pre- or post-GRoF, of course, but if they were post-GRoF, they'd still be gone by the end of this era.

That's my thought as well. I've taken to calling these folks the Deep Elves (to avoid any confusion with a Dark = drow connotation), but they are definitely around in this era. One clan of dwarves (the Yardrak) has had some contact with these elves in the past (that they would prefer remains a secret), and the elves are the ones who taught the Yardrak to worship dark immortals in order to halt the progress of the Wasting.

I'm thinking that these elves would disappear by BC 1700 at the latest - though there is probably a lot of internal conflict within their ranks at this point. Some small fraction of their society may survive throughout the ages, but exactly where they fled to... I'm not sure.

[Chimpman]

Blue dragonstones house intelligences (though not souls) of past sirens, the consciousness being imprinted into the crystalline matrix. Pyrklist calls them "Oracle stones," since they are capable of outside communication. Could they (through some reverse-engineered process) be used to take imprints of other consciousnesses, in effect becoming "artificial intelligences"? Blue dragonstones were a rather late addition/discovery in Blackmoor, and their use was not fully explored (what with the wars going on and all; as the stones did not have any outward weaponizable effects, their study was put on the back burner)

Heh, I actually had some ideas along these lines late last night/early this morning. I may start a new thread just to discuss these.

[agathokles]

Reading the soulforging bits, the Dark Elves of the Northern Reaches Gazetteer suddenly came back to my mind. Do you have any plans for them? They might be pre- or post-GRoF, of course, but if they were post-GRoF, they'd still be gone by the end of this era.

That's my thought as well. I've taken to calling these folks the Deep Elves (to avoid any confusion with a Dark = drow connotation), but they are definitely around in this era. One clan of dwarves (the Yardrak) has had some contact with these elves in the past (that they would prefer remains a secret), and the elves are the ones who taught the Yardrak to worship dark immortals in order to halt the progress of the Wasting.

I'm thinking that these elves would disappear by BC 1700 at the latest - though there is probably a lot of internal conflict within their ranks at this point. Some small fraction of their society may survive throughout the ages, but exactly where they fled to... I'm not sure.

One of my ideas regarding post-Blackmoor elves is that the old Blackmoor Elven Immortals mostly died in the GRoF events, thus leading these elves to either turn to Entropic Immortals (NR "Dark Elves") or away from Immortals entirely (Belcadiz, perhaps Gentle Folk).

GP

[Culture20]

I've taken to calling these folks the Deep Elves (to avoid any confusion with a Dark = drow connotation)

Perhaps Tiefalfen or Unteralfen?

[Chimpman]

Hey Rob,

Not sure if you've seen this yet, but I thought it might be of interest to you regarding Thorn's Mystara. Zomp's Sylvan Realm post (taken from one of the Dragonlord books), seems to indicate that there was a Blackmoorian installation not more than 4 days north of the Sylvan Realm.

So if that's the case, then why would Ilsundal (a rabid anti-technologist) choose to create his new "Returnist" home so close to the taint of Blackmoor? I'm starting to think that maybe Ilsundal had an ulterior motive to the formation of the Sylvan Realm. What if he established his nation of anti-technologist elves right at that location specifically to keep an eye on the ancient citadel and to make sure that no one ever breached its walls? And what would this mean with the coming of Moorcroft? The name has some similarities to Blackmoor Craft. So perhaps Moorcroft is actually a student of ancient Blackmoor, who wishes to bring its technology (or whatever is trapped within the citadel) back into the world.

Just some thoughts.

[RobJN]

Hey Rob,

Not sure if you've seen this yet, but I thought it might be of interest to you regarding Thorn's Mystara. Zomp's Sylvan Realm post (taken from one of the Dragonlord books), seems to indicate that there was a Blackmoorian installation not more than 4 days north of the Sylvan Realm.

So if that's the case, then why would Ilsundal (a rabid anti-technologist) choose to create his new "Returnist" home so close to the taint of Blackmoor? I'm starting to think that maybe Ilsundal had an ulterior motive to the formation of the Sylvan Realm. What if he established his nation of anti-technologist elves right at that location specifically to keep an eye on the ancient citadel and to make sure that no one ever breached its walls? And what would this mean with the coming of Moorcroft? The name has some similarities to Blackmoor Craft. So perhaps Moorcroft is actually a student of ancient Blackmoor, who wishes to bring its technology (or whatever is trapped within the citadel) back into the world.

Just some thoughts.

Thorn's Mystara canon (if there can be such a thing) states that Moorcroft was one of the most powerful demon-assisted magic users. With Zomp's information above, I wouldn't put it past the demon to have invaded the Sylvan Realm in order to wipe out the last guardians of the Blackmoorian outpost.

We know Illsundal created the Tree of Life in the Sylvan Realm, but where did he get the final pieces of knowledge that he needed to complete his task? Strange, that it should be after the elves settle in the Sylvan Realm, so close to the Blackmoorian outpost. Wouldn't it be ironic, for the leader of the Returnists to have relied on Blackmoorian magitech to complete his work and ascend to Immortality?

Trees of Life are capable of halting the Wasting, driving out demonic possession, and harm demons coming near them, whether they be in material or etherial form.

Hmm... what other device do we know of that does something similar?

Could the Blackmoorian outpost known nowadays as Dragon's Watch be the seat of Andahar's Engine? If it is, it makes Moorcroft's destruction and occupation of the Sylvan Realm all the more disturbing, and Illodius' pursuit of the last clan back to Alfheim an ominous turn of events.

[Chimpman]

Thorn's Mystara canon (if there can be such a thing) states that Moorcroft was one of the most powerful demon-assisted magic users. With Zomp's information above, I wouldn't put it past the demon to have invaded the Sylvan Realm in order to wipe out the last guardians of the Blackmoorian outpost.

Which might even support the thought that he was well versed in Blackmoorian era technomagic. That might be just the thing to give him an edge over all of those demons he is summoning. I love the idea that he invaded the Sylvan Realm to "acquire" more Blackmoorian artifacts (with the side benefit being that he gets to wipe out some elves too).

[ I think I was mispelling Morkroft] So if Morkroft invades 1000 years after Mealidin's journey, that would put the destruction of the Sylvan Realm at around AC 200 - is that correct? That gives Morkroft and his allies 800 years to work on whatever nefarious plot they are hatching. That seems like a rather bad thing.

We know Illsundal created the Tree of Life in the Sylvan Realm, but where did he get the final pieces of knowledge that he needed to complete his task? Strange, that it should be after the elves settle in the Sylvan Realm, so close to the Blackmoorian outpost. Wouldn't it be ironic, for the leader of the Returnists to have relied on Blackmoorian magitech to complete his work and ascend to Immortality?

Trees of Life are capable of halting the Wasting, driving out demonic possession, and harm demons coming near them, whether they be in material or etherial form.

Hmm... what other device do we know of that does something similar?

You mean besides the Progeny?

Could the Blackmoorian outpost known nowadays as Dragon's Watch be the seat of Andahar's Engine? If it is, it makes Moorcroft's destruction and occupation of the Sylvan Realm all the more disturbing, and Illodius' pursuit of the last clan back to Alfheim an ominous turn of events.

So... does that mean he's been spending his time trying to reverse the effects of the Engine (which would once again allow demons back into the world)?

[Chimpman]

I'm going back and re-reading this thread, but I just wanted to get a quick thought out before I lost it. Gremlins. What if gremlins were fey originally working for the Troll Queen, trying to reverse engineer Blackmoorian secrets (from the World Mountain, and then the site of the BC 1700 elven catastrophe)?

Once the BC 1700 device explodes, and the curse is unleashed upon the trolls, perhaps the gremlins also suffered some backlash? Perhaps being cursed to forever disassemble/destroy any Blackmoorian technology they come across... I need to do some research on the history of gremlins to see if anything in canon would clash with this idea.

[RobJN]

I'm going back and re-reading this thread, but I just wanted to get a quick thought out before I lost it. Gremlins. What if gremlins were fey originally working for the Troll Queen, trying to reverse engineer Blackmoorian secrets (from the World Mountain, and then the site of the BC 1700 elven catastrophe)?

Once the BC 1700 device explodes, and the curse is unleashed upon the trolls, perhaps the gremlins also suffered some backlash? Perhaps being cursed to forever disassemble/destroy any Blackmoorian technology they come across... I need to do some research on the history of gremlins to see if anything in canon would clash with this idea.

Maybe there is a gnomish-gremlin connection somewhere? (or, if not... make one )

[Chimpman]

Maybe there is a gnomish-gremlin connection somewhere? (or, if not... make one )

Perhaps they could have been gnomes at one time - those loyal to the Queen. Or perhaps they could have been gnomish changeling babies, taken from their real parents at birth, and then raised in Grondheim? After all, the Queen did need some expertise in dealing with all those Eldritch Machines that Blackmoor left behind. I'm not sure yet which direction I want to take though. Did gremlins start out as gnomes, or were they some kind of fey?

I need to put a bit more thought into it, but the real answer will lie in the list of playable races for Grondheim (and which option would be more fun to play).

[Gecko]

Did gremlins start out as gnomes, or were they some kind of fey?

Some interpritations have that Gnomes were originally Fey (Fey descended/part-fey/fey-touched/fey-blooded/whatever). I've never cared for that but in this connection, it could do, especially in light of this connection.

[Chimpman]

Did gremlins start out as gnomes, or were they some kind of fey?

Some interpritations have that Gnomes were originally Fey (Fey descended/part-fey/fey-touched/fey-blooded/whatever). I've never cared for that but in this connection, it could do, especially in light of this connection.

Well, after an (admittedly) quick scan, I find that PC2 is rather short on details about the origin of Gremlins. The only explanation is an in-character one (from a gnome) that claims gremlins are rather recent creations of some Entropy immortal that the gnome refuses to name. It's all very vague and definitely open to interpretation.

I'm currently leaning toward the theory that gremlins were fey at one time - perhaps they could be related to PC1's Wood Imps, who undergo a similar curse. If the proto-evil-leprechauns (that eventually became the Wood Imps) did in fact live in parts of Grondheim, then perhaps their people "degenerated" into more than one race. Some of them became Wood Imps (those who watched over the mortal changelings), while others became gremlins (those who dabbled in Blackmoorian technomancy). Perhaps there are yet more strains of degenerate fey out there as well...

I'm still not entirely sure that I want to drag gnomes into this backstory, but the possibility still remains.

[RobJN]

I'm currently leaning toward the theory that gremlins were fey at one time - perhaps they could be related to PC1's Wood Imps, who undergo a similar curse. If the proto-evil-leprechauns (that eventually became the Wood Imps) did in fact live in parts of Grondheim, then perhaps their people "degenerated" into more than one race. Some of them became Wood Imps (those who watched over the mortal changelings), while others became gremlins (those who dabbled in Blackmoorian technomancy). Perhaps there are yet more strains of degenerate fey out there as well..

Perhaps the Troll Queen's curse had a cascade effect on her subjects?(Willing and unwilling)

[Chimpman]

I'm currently leaning toward the theory that gremlins were fey at one time - perhaps they could be related to PC1's Wood Imps, who undergo a similar curse. If the proto-evil-leprechauns (that eventually became the Wood Imps) did in fact live in parts of Grondheim, then perhaps their people "degenerated" into more than one race. Some of them became Wood Imps (those who watched over the mortal changelings), while others became gremlins (those who dabbled in Blackmoorian technomancy). Perhaps there are yet more strains of degenerate fey out there as well..

Perhaps the Troll Queen's curse had a cascade effect on her subjects?(Willing and unwilling)

I'm starting to think that is exactly what happened

[RobJN]

I have worked out who the Troll Queen is, in Thorn's World That Was

[Chimpman]

I have worked out who the Troll Queen is, in Thorn's World That Was

And that's what you leave me with!

Wait... is it someone I know...?
(Bit of cross posting here) To be honest I kinda thought that's who Drachenfels was in your game when Loras first met her.

[RobJN]

I have worked out who the Troll Queen is, in Thorn's World That Was

And that's what you leave me with!

Wait... is it someone I know...?
(Bit of cross posting here) To be honest I kinda thought that's who Drachenfels was in your game when Loras first met her.

It is nobody the players have met. Yet.

Probably not until Act 2 or 3.