Dragonlance Underdark?

"For in ages past, beyond memory and word, in the first blush of the world, Dragons terrible and great made war on this world of Krynn."
The Book-House: Find Dragonlance products.

Moderators: maddog, Dragonhelm

Post Reply
User avatar
Havard
Dragon Turtle
Posts: 19911
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:32 pm
Gender: male
Location: Norway
Contact:

Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Havard » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:12 pm

Just an idea that popped into my head from the Beholder thread. Is there a Dragonlance Underdark? Sounds like a possible idea for a fan project?

How would a Dragonlance Underdark be different from that of the Forgotten Realms or the Mystara Shadowdeep?

-Havard

Aliases: Håvard Frosta, Havard Blackmoor, Blackmoorian, Dragon Turtle etc
Where to find me on the Web
The Comeback Inn - My Blackmoor Forum
The Blackmoor Blog
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
My Articles at the Vaults of Pandius
Moderator of the Mystara, Blackmoor and Thunder Rift forums.
My moderator voice is
GREEN.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 24965
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:44 am

I don't think there is the sort of Underdark that links one end of the continent with the other, but there are large underground complexes.

In Dragonlance Chronicles, the heroes get to explore a city that has fallen into the ground. While they are in there they meet Bupu.

And there is a Dwarven city called Thorbardin that is hidden below the ground. There is a boxed set, called Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn that tells you everything you could want to know about Kal-Thax, Thorin,, Thorbardin, Thoradin, Kayolin and Zakar. (I bought the boxed set to use it for inspiration for Reorx in Krynnspace, and I've not done more than skimmed through it yet. But I do know that Thorbardin is not an underground city. It is an entire underground country, made up of several connected cities.)

I don't know the dwarven nations of other campaign settings so well, but I get the impression that the dwarves of Dragonlance have a much better stranglehold on the underground realms. I know that they had a war, after The Cataclysm, with one faction sealing themselves underground and sealing the Hill Dwarves outside (above the ground). But apart from dwarf on dwarf wars, I didn't notice a major theme of other races and monsters competing with the dwarves.

I'm not sure what else would live under the ground on Krynn. There are no drow on Krynn (except some that got in through something like a portal in Wild Elves (and many fans think of that adventure as uncanonised, because of the drow). The only mind-flayers are stunted ones (called Yaggol) who live in Taladas.

I think you will get a better answer from Dragonhelm or another DL expert.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

ripvanwormer
Black Dragon
Posts: 3426
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:14 pm
Gender: male

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by ripvanwormer » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:46 am

Kal-Thax. The first realm of the dwarves, Kal-Thax is now abandoned and difficult to access from the surface. All three of its original entrances were destroyed in the Cataclysm.

Den of the Horax. Beneath the Garnet Mountains, insectoid/reptilian horrors called horax are slowly growing and evolving. They have slaughtered several dwarven mining operations, leaving no survivors to tell the tale. A great colony of them exist on the lower levels of Dorax Delving.

Daerbardin. One of the eight cities of Thorbardin, this is the home of the Daergar, who are sort of Krynn's equivalent of duergar. The Daergar are known for delving deep beneath the earth.

Theibardin. This is the city of the Theiwar, who are sort of Krynn's equivalent of the derro. It's a dark, gloomy place.

Lair of the Shadowpeople. Beneath the Doom Range, a clan of gentle shadowpeople dwell. One of their largest communities is beneath the city of Sanction. They may have other realms elsewhere. Their settlements are sometimes raided by the jarak-sinn lizardfolk.

Sanction Tunnel. This is a secret tunnel created by the Zhakar dwarves in order to provide access to the city of Sanction.

The Warrens of Zhakar (not to be confused with Warren Zevon). Deep beneath the dwarven realm of Zhakar are the agricultural caverns, where water, fish, lizards, and edible fungi are harvested. Beneath those, hidden beneath a massive plug of mushrooms, are the Plague Warrens, an extensive series of underdark caverns inhabited by malevolent hybrids of fungi with long-dead Zhakar. The resulting hybrids, the fungusfolk, are slowly increasing their numbers, planning someday to conquer the warrens and found colonies elsewhere. They are commanded by a "master brain."

OdherRhing. "The Land Beneath the Mountains" in Northern Hosk, on the continent of Taladas. This is the realm of the Scorned Dwarves, who reacted to the Cataclysm by burrowing deep beneath the earth, so deeply that the surface world is only a legend to them, and they are only a legend to it. They grew so obsessed with digging deeper that they breached into the realm of the disir. Of the monsters in the Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium, only the entry for the disir explicitly uses the word "Underdark" to describe their realm (though there are other creatures in the underdark encounter chart). The disir are large, slimy things, full of evil and hate and the power to turn dwarven dead into walking corpses bent on the destruction of their former kind. There seems to be no end to them. The war between the disir and the dwarves is eternal.

Underdark encounters: The Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium lists the following creatures in its underdark encounter chart: phycomid, ascomid, brown mold, green slime, purple worm, xorn, jarak-sinn, carrion crawler, roper, shadowperson, tunnel worm, boring beetle, horax, shrieker, gully dwarf, yellow mold, giant slug, Zhakar dwarf, Daergar dwarf, Theiwar dwarf, slithering tracker, gelatinous cube, aboleth, yaggol, whisper spider.

User avatar
Havard
Dragon Turtle
Posts: 19911
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:32 pm
Gender: male
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Havard » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:08 pm

Wow, that is a great summary Rip!

All we need now is a map, eh? Any takers? :)

-Havard

Aliases: Håvard Frosta, Havard Blackmoor, Blackmoorian, Dragon Turtle etc
Where to find me on the Web
The Comeback Inn - My Blackmoor Forum
The Blackmoor Blog
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
My Articles at the Vaults of Pandius
Moderator of the Mystara, Blackmoor and Thunder Rift forums.
My moderator voice is
GREEN.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 24965
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:46 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Kal-Thax. The first realm of the dwarves, Kal-Thax is now abandoned and difficult to access from the surface. All three of its original entrances were destroyed in the Cataclysm.
That sounds like the target of an underdark campaign on Dragonlance. Maybe someone could steal ideas from the plot of the Hobbit and design a campaign where some dwarves go on a quest to discover a way into Kal-Thax.
ripvanwormer wrote:Den of the Horax. Beneath the Garnet Mountains, insectoid/reptilian horrors called horax are slowly growing and evolving. They have slaughtered several dwarven mining operations, leaving no survivors to tell the tale. A great colony of them exist on the lower levels of Dorax Delving.
That sounds pretty good. Are they mentioned in any sourcebooks or adventures?
ripvanwormer wrote:Daerbardin. One of the eight cities of Thorbardin, this is the home of the Daergar, who are sort of Krynn's equivalent of duergar. The Daergar are known for delving deep beneath the earth.
I know the cities of Thorbardin are connected by railway routes. Ones pulled by ponies or something like that. Does Daerbardin also have connections to lower levels of the underdark?
ripvanwormer wrote:Theibardin. This is the city of the Theiwar, who are sort of Krynn's equivalent of the derro. It's a dark, gloomy place.
That is a Thorbardin city, as well, IIRC. I guess that the Theiwar and Daergar allow you to have a dwarf vs dwarf campaign.

IIRC the Theiwar are the magic-using dwarves and other Krynnish dwarves distrust them because of their association with magic (or maybe the distrust magic because of its association with the Theiwar).
ripvanwormer wrote:Lair of the Shadowpeople. Beneath the Doom Range, a clan of gentle shadowpeople dwell. One of their largest communities is beneath the city of Sanction. They may have other realms elsewhere. Their settlements are sometimes raided by the jarak-sinn lizardfolk.
I love shadowpeople, as they have the same creative origins as Spelljammer's hadozee. I've been thinking of using shadowpeople as a hadozee subrace.

I'd love to know about any other place where shadowpeople are found.
ripvanwormer wrote:Sanction Tunnel. This is a secret tunnel created by the Zhakar dwarves in order to provide access to the city of Sanction.
Does the other end of the tunnel go to Zhakar? Does that mean that Zhakar is directly under Sanction or does the tunnel travel horizontally:?
ripvanwormer wrote:The Warrens of Zhakar (not to be confused with Warren Zevon). Deep beneath the dwarven realm of Zhakar are the agricultural caverns, where water, fish, lizards, and edible fungi are harvested. Beneath those, hidden beneath a massive plug of mushrooms, are the Plague Warrens, an extensive series of underdark caverns inhabited by malevolent hybrids of fungi with long-dead Zhakar. The resulting hybrids, the fungusfolk, are slowly increasing their numbers, planning someday to conquer the warrens and found colonies elsewhere. They are commanded by a "master brain."
Sounds like some sort of zombiefying fungus. I would guess that a cleric could not turn fungusfolk, as they would not be true undead.

Are The Warrens of Zhakar covered in a 3e or 2e sourcebook in any detail?
ripvanwormer wrote:OdherRhing. "The Land Beneath the Mountains" in Northern Hosk, on the continent of Taladas. This is the realm of the Scorned Dwarves, who reacted to the Cataclysm by burrowing deep beneath the earth, so deeply that the surface world is only a legend to them, and they are only a legend to it. They grew so obsessed with digging deeper that they breached into the realm of the disir. Of the monsters in the Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium, only the entry for the disir explicitly uses the word "Underdark" to describe their realm (though there are other creatures in the underdark encounter chart). The disir are large, slimy things, full of evil and hate and the power to turn dwarven dead into walking corpses bent on the destruction of their former kind. There seems to be no end to them. The war between the disir and the dwarves is eternal.
I wish that MWP had gotten around to making 3e books for Taladas, as this is something I'd have loved to see them use.
ripvanwormer wrote:Underdark encounters: The Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium lists the following creatures in its underdark encounter chart: phycomid, ascomid, brown mold, green slime, purple worm, xorn, jarak-sinn, carrion crawler, roper, shadowperson, tunnel worm, boring beetle, horax, shrieker, gully dwarf, yellow mold, giant slug, Zhakar dwarf, Daergar dwarf, Theiwar dwarf, slithering tracker, gelatinous cube, aboleth, yaggol, whisper spider.
I thought the yaggol were only found in Taladas. Are they also found in the Underdark of Ansalon?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

ripvanwormer
Black Dragon
Posts: 3426
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:14 pm
Gender: male

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:38 pm

Big Mac wrote:That sounds pretty good. Are they mentioned in any sourcebooks or adventures?
Most of the information above, including the horax lair, comes from Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn.
Sounds like some sort of zombiefying fungus. I would guess that a cleric could not turn fungusfolk, as they would not be true undead.
No, they're living fungal creatures like myconids.
Are The Warrens of Zhakar covered in a 3e or 2e sourcebook in any detail?
See Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn.
I thought the yaggol were only found in Taladas. Are they also found in the Underdark of Ansalon?
The Monstrous Compendium doesn't specify, but I'd assume they're only found in Taladas.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 24965
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:28 pm

The Dark Queen of Krynn computer game contains a section set in the Tombs of Kristophan.

Plus, I'm not totally sure on this, but Dragonwand of Krynn (which is partially set inside the Temple of the Dragon) got called a "dungeon crawl".
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

BPIJonathan
Dinosaur King
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:07 pm
Gender: male
Location: Shreveport, LA
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by BPIJonathan » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:14 am

As you may or may not know, I am currently running a Dragonlance game using Pathfinder, and one of my eventual plans are to introduce the Drow to Krynn. The idea is that the forces of Evil corrupted elves, like they did good dragons, creating Drow. There is not much more to this right now, as its something that I am going to have show up when I get to the War of the Lance. So as you may expect, this thread is of interest to me.
Jonathan M. Thompson
Battlefield Press International | thompsonjm (at) gmail (dot) com |"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 24965
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:10 pm

BPIJonathan wrote:As you may or may not know, I am currently running a Dragonlance game using Pathfinder, and one of my eventual plans are to introduce the Drow to Krynn. The idea is that the forces of Evil corrupted elves, like they did good dragons, creating Drow. There is not much more to this right now, as its something that I am going to have show up when I get to the War of the Lance. So as you may expect, this thread is of interest to me.
Are you going to use the Morinesti?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

BPIJonathan
Dinosaur King
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:07 pm
Gender: male
Location: Shreveport, LA
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by BPIJonathan » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:16 pm

Big Mac wrote:
BPIJonathan wrote:As you may or may not know, I am currently running a Dragonlance game using Pathfinder, and one of my eventual plans are to introduce the Drow to Krynn. The idea is that the forces of Evil corrupted elves, like they did good dragons, creating Drow. There is not much more to this right now, as its something that I am going to have show up when I get to the War of the Lance. So as you may expect, this thread is of interest to me.
Are you going to use the Morinesti?
I had not originally intended to, but now that I see it I am going to review it and see if I want to adapt any (or all) of it to my campaign.
Jonathan M. Thompson
Battlefield Press International | thompsonjm (at) gmail (dot) com |"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan

User avatar
TBeholder
Hill Giant
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:53 pm
Gender: prefer not to say
Location: Chthonic Safety

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by TBeholder » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:26 pm

Krynn have the "lost world" area Chorane.
Also, it looks like there's not only a little mithril on Krynn, but some adamantine here and there.
Big Mac wrote: There is a boxed set, called Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn that tells you everything you could want to know about Kal-Thax, Thorin,, Thorbardin, Thoradin, Kayolin and Zakar. (I bought the boxed set to use it for inspiration for Reorx in Krynnspace, and I've not done more than skimmed through it yet. But I do know that Thorbardin is not an underground city. It is an entire underground country, made up of several connected cities.)

I don't know the dwarven nations of other campaign settings so well, but I get the impression that the dwarves of Dragonlance have a much better stranglehold on the underground realms. I know that they had a war, after The Cataclysm, with one faction sealing themselves underground and sealing the Hill Dwarves outside (above the ground). But apart from dwarf on dwarf wars, I didn't notice a major theme of other races and monsters competing with the dwarves.
...and if there was something else aggressive and tough enough to be worth a mention, it probably would be mentioned, because dwarves would already have to deal with it? Yup.
Big Mac wrote:I'm not sure what else would live under the ground on Krynn. There are no drow on Krynn (except some that got in through something like a portal in Wild Elves (and many fans think of that adventure as uncanonised, because of the drow).
(lookup) ...who were invaders barely showing their noses from a demiplane which technically is not even truly incorporated as a part of Krynn? I fail to see all the horror of this idea.
BPIJonathan wrote:As you may or may not know, I am currently running a Dragonlance game using Pathfinder, and one of my eventual plans are to introduce the Drow to Krynn. The idea is that the forces of Evil corrupted elves, like they did good dragons, creating Drow.
And why do it exactly the same way again? "because you can never have too much redundancy"? Especially given that, as mentioned, they have already appeared as the planewalking invaders and Krynn is a well-connected sphere (as the abundance of tinker gnomes everywhere else shows). Why not to develop from the existing seed?
In fact, it's easy to combine both. Almost all you need to set up the drow presence is already there, in "Wild Elves", including these drow already being crashed spelljammers. Jiathuli may be "the Spider Queen #1" - one of the earlier Dark Seldarine whom Lolth reduced to husks on Astral and took their stuff (it's sort of canon that she acts like this when she can - and got Selvetarm do the same with Zanassu), only this one was resurrected by remaining followers (see Finder's Bane, etc). Then she would try to pull herself back into Lower Planes via alliance with stronger powers, lose the next squabble and get kicked out - which is "Wild Elves" setup. Then she needed to rebuild the power base both for her followers and herself, and presumably lost again.
Assuming in the aftermath she's beaten up again, but still alive (she's a power, after all) and had a few agents establish hideouts outside the demiplane, the next step would be to give up blatant conquests and power-grabs (which inevitably lead to conflicts with native deities she can't afford) on Krynn, and instead guide her remaining servants to a spelljamming port and off the planet, on the mission to find and recruit more drow not happy with Lolth - which always is a good bet... if never exactly a safe bet. And then...
Ed Greenwood wrote:- ... but as surely as Ghaunadaur rises, Lolth will rise against him. To say nothing of other deities who watch matters Waterdhavian more closely than ye know, and won't fail to step in and forcibly join the fun.
- Which means we're doomed. A drow invasion, aboleths in the harbor, divine servitors galore, then the gods themselves, shattering Waterdeep as they fight face to face. Yes, doomed.
(Night of the Dread Pudding)
Oh, and Krynnspace is right next to Greyspace with its Kule - meaning that Lililth Darkmane will have to sponsor part of this fun, whether she wants or not. Perhaps even PCs some mercenaries contacted via non-drow frontman. After all, she's definitely not heavy-handed, and there are few things as hilarious as having a bunch of surface elves duped into costly half-blind attack on an enemy of Lolth - why a nice Priestess-Empress couldn't at least get some entertainment out of unprofitable parts of her job? ;)
"Two Eyes Good, Eleven Eyes Better." - Michele Carter

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 24965
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Big Mac » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:17 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:44 am
And there is a Dwarven city called Thorbardin that is hidden below the ground. There is a boxed set, called Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn that tells you everything you could want to know about Kal-Thax, Thorin,, Thorbardin, Thoradin, Kayolin and Zakar. (I bought the boxed set to use it for inspiration for Reorx in Krynnspace, and I've not done more than skimmed through it yet. But I do know that Thorbardin is not an underground city. It is an entire underground country, made up of several connected cities.)

I don't know the dwarven nations of other campaign settings so well, but I get the impression that the dwarves of Dragonlance have a much better stranglehold on the underground realms. I know that they had a war, after The Cataclysm, with one faction sealing themselves underground and sealing the Hill Dwarves outside (above the ground). But apart from dwarf on dwarf wars, I didn't notice a major theme of other races and monsters competing with the dwarves.
Thinking about this again, if the Hill Dwarves were locked out of Thorbardin, after the Cataclysm and only regained access to it during the War of the Lance, that might imply that the Hill Dwarves were mostly locked out of the Underdark, by their underground cousins.

Krynn does not have drow...aside from those invading drow in Wild Elves. That means it did not have any Crown Wars and did not have an event like the Descent of the Drow, where some elves were cursed and forced underground. And that means there were no ex-elves to invade dwarven territories and then to come up and raid the surface. So maybe - if there is an Underdark on Krynn - it does not hold an entire race obsessed with coming up to the surface to take slaves.

So, regardless of how much of the Underdark might have collapsed during the Cataclysm, there are two changes (from Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk) that might make most people (except Hill Dwarves) think there is nothing down there.

And there is also Mount Nevermind to be considered. That has another underground city/nation that most people don't bother with (as well as Chorane).

Most importantly, if Ripvanwormer found that Underdark Encounters Chart, that means that there is Underdark down there.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

BPIJonathan
Dinosaur King
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:07 pm
Gender: male
Location: Shreveport, LA
Contact:

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by BPIJonathan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:35 pm

Im not sure any sane race would actually attempt to mess with the Gnomes of Ansalon.
Jonathan M. Thompson
Battlefield Press International | thompsonjm (at) gmail (dot) com |"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan

User avatar
Classicdnd
Hobgoblin
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:30 am
Gender: male
Location: Tasmania

Re: Dragonlance Underdark?

Post by Classicdnd » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:06 pm

In addition to the deep-underground, reclusive empire of the Scorned Dwarves, located in the roots of the Ring Mountains, Northern Hosk - which has already been noted - there's also the 'abandoned' underground home of the Fianawar Dwarves in the Steamwall Mountains of Southern Hosk.
Image
Image Image

Post Reply

Return to “Dragonlance”