Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:54 pm

Glad to help!
Once you have a general idea of a more accurate mapping, could you please share it with me so that we can adapt the Midlands countries? It would be very unlikely that these countries stretch all the way to the Yalu Sea if it is much further to the West.
Concerning Mongolian script, I was exposed to it on official steles erected during Qing (Manchu) Dynasty in China. These are usually quadrilingual: Chinese characters, Mongolian, Manchu and Tibetan scripts.
Cheers!
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:36 am

Hello Christian,

No problems - I'll make the necessary tweaks to the map this week and will send it to you next Sunday (9 February), as I should have it all done by then. Is your browser okay viewing and downloading documents from google docs, as I could upload it there?

Regards.

Matt
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:18 pm

Excellent! I have so far refrained from making new maps (though it is very tempting), there's still much edition/updating work to do on old written material. That would give me a great outlet for my mapping urge! G-docs is fine.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:02 am

Hello Christian,

I've now sent you a PM on this website with a link to the map.

Enjoy!
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:33 am

Hello Christian,

Rather annoyingly, the message I sent you is sitting in my "Outbox", but not in my "Sent Items" list. I therefore don't know if you are able to read it or not.

If you can't see the message, then please try sending me a PM with your e-mail address, and I'll send the map to you that way.

Regards,

Matt
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Gecko » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:42 am

That's normal.... PM's go into your outbox until the recepient "picks-it-up" so to speak
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:57 am

Gecko was right: I got it all as soon as I got home! ;)
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Sat May 17, 2014 3:35 pm

Well, I've finally got around to updating my Black Mountains map, which can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1WEBq01AI_zOXR1ZENPSTF1eFE/edit

Please note that I am aware of possible issues when viewing Google Docs on Internet Explorer, so try using another browser if you experience any problems. Once you can view the map on any browser, then please select a resolution of 100% so all of the labels can be viewed clearly.

The following changes have been made:

1 A new Hex guide has been added for user friendliness;
2 I've added borders for a more presentable look;
3 various trails and roads have been tweaked, as Laokong has now clarified to me what they are after revisiting his own previous fan material;
4 various changes to the North of the map have been made on the back of the Borean Valley project that me and Laokong worked on;
5 various formatting changes, such as on the labeling to make the map more legible;
6 Three new locations have been added on the back of the recent Sind Desert article that has been loaded up onto the Vaults of Pandius;
7 A few changes to River Tributaries to make the map tie up with canon material;
8 I've renamed some towns to tie up with the names on the Sardjikjian market file which is on the vaults of Pandius. I missed this article initially when doing my research. :oops:

Specifically, for point 7, I had one river tributary flowing towards the Gulf of Hule, and another towards Galannor, when both should have been flowing into the Borean Valley instead, according to canon material. This error was replicated from Laokong's original map of the region.

Enjoy!
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Mon May 02, 2016 2:44 pm

I've made a number of further updates to my Black Mountains map, of which the latest version can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WEBq ... NybVE/view

The latest updates I've made are as follows:

1. I've added some forested hills on the eastern side of the Black Mountains, which is confirmed in module X4 (Master of the desert Nomads) as being present. Previous maps (including canon ones) have shown these hills to be bare of vegetation. My map should therefore now tie up with Robin's work in this area and her upcoming Great Pass Gazetteer;
2. I've added some glacier hexes in the Black Mountains, which is confirmed to be present in X4;
3. I've added Lake Ishi and amended the nearby river tributary to tie up more closely with Robin's map and article called "The Grouzhina Flood", which was published in the Threshold Magazine;
4. I've shifted the hexes on the bottom right to the South-West by one hex, to tie up with the Great Waste map published in the Champions of Mystara boxed set. This is also the approach taken by Thorf in his recent mapping project, the main reason being that the map in X4 does not tie up with the coastal areas shown on other sources, which in turn would cause further mapping issues. However, I have also knocked up a version which is compatible with the map shown in X4 for those who prefer the other approach. This can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WEBq ... NuWk0/view

As usual, any comments are welcome.

Regards,

Carillion
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Khedrac » Wed May 04, 2016 7:51 pm

Carillion wrote:Previous maps (including canon ones) have shown these hills to be bare of vegetation.

I am glad that you have changed the hills to Forested Hills, but you are wrong in stating that canon maps show them as bare. This was actually a discussion I had with Thorf back on the WotC boards when he first announced his mapping of Karameikos.

Prior to the later Gazetteers the "hills" symbol did not denote vegetation coverage - the "Forested Hills" symbol did not exist when Gaz 1 was written, it certainly did not exist when the modules were produced.
To find out which Hills symbol to use (now we have multiple) the correct action is to check the descriptive text.

You are to be greatly applauded for changing the symbol to keep up the the mapping enhancments.
"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might just be a crow".
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Big Mac » Wed May 04, 2016 10:32 pm

Wow! What an impressive topic! Three years, and still going strong and you actually got two people to sign up to The Piazza to join in with one topic! :shock: :mrgreen:

Carillion wrote:I posted the map found here in the general Mystara board area a number of weeks ago and am now moving it to the correct place here. I have also changed the hosting site to Google Docs, as people were having issues viewing it on Photobucket previously. However, please be warned that it cannot be viewed via Internet Explorer, due to some incompatability issues between that browser and Google Docs itself. A Thank you to Spellweaver for spotting this problem and warning me about it.


It looks like your original map has dropped offline.

I can't follow this very well (as my Mystara-fu is still very weak) but I think being able to see the "before" map, as well as the "after" map (or the "during" map) would allow me to see what hexes you are shuffling around and follow the discussion as best as I can. :oops:

Laokong wrote:Hello,
I want to thank Carillion warmly for his efforts at modernizing this old content. I am more than flattered to see that stuff I have worked on almost 15 years ago is still alive and considered interesting by fans of Mystara. At the time, I had developped my own system (using Photoshop and a long process of cutting/pasting hexes over a layered grid) and I'm truly impressed by the maps created following Thorf's Illustrator-based system. I hope to be able to learn how to make my own. I kind of remember struggling with the Sind Desert discrepancy when working on this map too.
I have hit the Mystara/OD&D books again and I am planning to finish my old Hule project. So you can expect more details on this region as well once I am done reviewing my old manuscript notes (all my original files were lost to a faulty external hard drive) and rereading canon material.
Thanks again,
Christian


I'm a few years late, but Welcome to The Piazza, Christian/Laokong.

If you have not already posted there, you might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "Hi" to the community at large and let people know what things you are interested in.

Khedrac wrote:
Carillion wrote:Previous maps (including canon ones) have shown these hills to be bare of vegetation.

I am glad that you have changed the hills to Forested Hills, but you are wrong in stating that canon maps show them as bare. This was actually a discussion I had with Thorf back on the WotC boards when he first announced his mapping of Karameikos.

Prior to the later Gazetteers the "hills" symbol did not denote vegetation coverage - the "Forested Hills" symbol did not exist when Gaz 1 was written, it certainly did not exist when the modules were produced.
To find out which Hills symbol to use (now we have multiple) the correct action is to check the descriptive text.

You are to be greatly applauded for changing the symbol to keep up the the mapping enhancments.


Welcome to The Piazza Khedrac.

I don't think I recall your name from the WotC forums as I was mostly hanging around WotC's Spelljammer forum, but it's great to see another one of our old community make it over to our new home at The Piazza. :mrgreen:

You might also want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic.

I missed that discussion you had with Thorf about the "hills"/"forested hills" hex issues. Maybe we need a topic, somewhere on The Piazza, to summarise that and give everyone else a way to catch up with what you and Thorf figured out.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Thu May 05, 2016 10:27 am

Big Mac wrote:I'm a few years late, but Welcome to The Piazza, Christian/Laokong.

If you have not already posted there, you might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "Hi" to the community at large and let people know what things you are interested in.


Well he already did that and you also replied to him back then :D
(viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10588&start=100#p139308)
Laokong/Christian wrote some great stuff for the Mystaran community back in 1999 (http://pandius.com/cconstan.html), then he came back writing more great stuff in 2014, but unfortunately he disappeared again soon after and has not visited the forum since March 2014. A pity because he was writing more great stuff for Davania, which I partially used in Threshold issue #5, published in September 2014. But my PMs to him on June and July 2014 are still unread in my Outbox, so..

A lot of Carillion's great work is based on Christian's original maps of the area, mostly this map (http://pandius.com/h1000ac.jpg) which was the first one on the area.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Big Mac » Thu May 05, 2016 10:40 am

Sturm wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I'm a few years late, but Welcome to The Piazza, Christian/Laokong.

If you have not already posted there, you might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "Hi" to the community at large and let people know what things you are interested in.


Well he already did that and you also replied to him back then :D
(viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10588&start=100#p139308)


:facepalm:

Sturm wrote:Laokong/Christian wrote some great stuff for the Mystaran community back in 1999 (http://pandius.com/cconstan.html), then he came back writing more great stuff in 2014, but unfortunately he disappeared again soon after and has not visited the forum since March 2014. A pity because he was writing more great stuff for Davania, which I partially used in Threshold issue #5, published in September 2014. But my PMs to him on June and July 2014 are still unread in my Outbox, so..

A lot of Carillion's great work is based on Christian's original maps of the area, mostly this map (http://pandius.com/h1000ac.jpg) which was the first one on the area.


There are some awesome people in the Mystara community, who I don't know off by heart.

Hav you tried contacting Christian via the email feature on his profile? PMs sit in your outbox until someone logs in, but emails get sent out to the account someone uses to sign in. (So, as long as someone hasn't abandoned an email address, they should get through to them.)
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Thu May 05, 2016 11:03 am

Yes I tried at the time but he did not reply.
People disappear sometime for many different reason, I was completely away from the Mystaran community from 2006 to 2011, maybe he will return eventually. He had several interesting ideas for sure.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Big Mac » Thu May 05, 2016 12:46 pm

Sturm wrote:Yes I tried at the time but he did not reply.
People disappear sometime for many different reason, I was completely away from the Mystaran community from 2006 to 2011, maybe he will return eventually. He had several interesting ideas for sure.


I disappeared from the Spelljammer community a couple of times. And I quit playing D&D entirely, during most of the time I was doing Live Role Playing (because I didn't have time for both things).
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Sun May 08, 2016 11:15 pm

Hello Khedrac - Welcome to the Piazza!

I am glad that you have changed the hills to Forested Hills, but you are wrong in stating that canon maps show them as bare. This was actually a discussion I had with Thorf back on the WotC boards when he first announced his mapping of Karameikos.

Prior to the later Gazetteers the "hills" symbol did not denote vegetation coverage - the "Forested Hills" symbol did not exist when Gaz 1 was written, it certainly did not exist when the modules were produced.


For the earlier maps, what you say is entirely true. However, when TSR released the Champions of Mystara (CoM) boxed set in 1993, they were already using the forested hills hex, but still did not denote any of the hills east of the Black Mountains as being forested. Here is Thorf's excellent replica map of the Sind desert that came with the CoM boxed set which illustrates this:

http://www.pandius.com/champions-great- ... olours.png

As you can see, numerous hills are denominated as being forested on the map, but unfortunately none of them are around the eastern side of the Great Pass. This is why I stated that these hills are shown as being bare in canon sources.

Hello Big Mac

It looks like your original map has dropped offline.

I can't follow this very well (as my Mystara-fu is still very weak) but I think being able to see the "before" map, as well as the "after" map (or the "during" map) would allow me to see what hexes you are shuffling around and follow the discussion as best as I can.


Apologies, I did a bit of spring cleaning recently and deleted some of my older maps! However, an earlier version can be found on the Vaults of Pandius here:

http://www.pandius.com/Black_Mountains_10.jpg

Hopefully this should help you see the recent changes I've made.

Yes I tried at the time but he did not reply.
People disappear sometime for many different reason, I was completely away from the Mystaran community from 2006 to 2011, maybe he will return eventually. He had several interesting ideas for sure.


Hello Sturm - yes, it was a shame that Laokong disappeared almost as quickly as he appeared. I do have an e-mail address for him saved somewhere, but I never sent anything to him after he left, as I wasn't sure he would want me to.

Regards,

Matt
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