Lifejammer Prison ship

[Jaid]

the rules for lifejammers don't say anything one way or the other about swarms, it's the rules for swarms that say something about swarms, and for some, it says that the swarm is treated as a creature. the rules for lifejammers are perfectly clear on what happens if you put a creature in them.

[Dalillama]

2e hasn't got general rules for swarms. Rules for swarming insects are ad hoc, found in the entry for the particular creature, and don't mention anything about hit dice or treating a swarm as a creature. E.g.. 3.5e has rules for swarms, but does not cover Lifejammer helms. Therefore, the two rules do not coexist in the same ruleset, and it's fairly clear that per the 2e rules a swarm would absolutely not count.

[AuldDragon]

swarms aren't individuals, but some swarms are *treated* as individuals. if we're going with "here's how it works, because the rules say so", then a swarm that is treated as an individual creature should work, even if it is not actually an individual creature.

A swarm or collective is treated as individuals for certain combat purposes, only. If it makes a DM's life easier, they could treat a military squad of humans as a "single creature" for HD/attacks purposes, but that doesn't mean a character could use a Wand of Paralyzation to paralyze the whole group at once. They're still individuals, even if they're collected into one single unit for the abstract mathematical purposes of certain game rules.

Jeff

[Jaid]

there aren't general rules for swarms. but there is a swarm that explicitly says it counts as a 4 hit die creature.

again, if we're trying to claim that we're just following the rules, that specific swarm (and any others i may not have noticed that use the same rule) don't counts as a single creature. not for a specific purpose, but as a general rule.

[Big Mac]

Goblins and kobolds, who are less than 1 Hit Die, can be put on the helm. They're less than one Hit Die. I think it would be reasonable to limit it to half-hit die creatures and above, though.

As for the hit points that are drained, I find it interesting that 1d8 is also the time taken to warm up a spelljamming helm. I would houserule that the same 1d8 represents both the warm-up time and the hit points drained by the victim within the helm. Therefore, I would roll the damage at the start of the shift, and if a victim had 3 hit points and the warm-up time was 6 rounds, I would have them die before the helm finished warming up.

Pretty sure the 1d8 warmup time is not canon.

To be honest, I'm not even sure where it came from in *our* game, because I don't think I ever said that. But it seemed reasonable so I rolled with it.

I said it. It's in the "Take Off and Landing" section of Chapter 4 Movement & Combat, in Concordance of Arcane Space. But it only applies to taking off from a celestial body of class A or greater, so would not apply to a ship taking off from another ship (like a Battle Dolphin shuttle launching).

Anyhoo. The two 1d8 rolls could just be a coincidence, but it would be fun to have a lifejammer victim loose a hit point every minute, while a ship was trying to take off from a world. That way, people trying to rescue the victim, might be able to get them out before the ship launches and stop the rest of the damage.

[Big Mac]

The real world doesn't have codified forces of good, evil, law, and chaos. Comparing what was done in the real world is not the best for the game, where those are real, concrete forces.

I'm well aware of that. What I'm saying is that I don't see lifejammer as automatically Evil. The apparatus doesn't have to be pain inflicting. I won't follow what is written in the books for my campaign anyway - I don't have much use for canon style play. I was looking for inspiration and got many good suggestions.

If you want to go against the canon, that's fine. Canon is just a tool.

But, I did want to make sure you knew that Jeff Grubb intended them to be seen as evil.

We had a lifejammer recently, in AuldDragon's game. I had my character state that he wanted to destroy it, because it was evil, the paladin joined in with that, and everyone forgot it was worth 80,000gp (or enough money to buy a Hammership and have change).

[night_druid]

We had a lifejammer recently, in AuldDragon's game. I had my character state that he wanted to destroy it, because it was evil, the paladin joined in with that, and everyone forgot it was worth 80,000gpb (or enough money to buy a Hammership and have change).

If you can find a buyer, that is. In some ports, selling one might be a crime, too.

[Big Mac]

there aren't general rules for swarms. but there is a swarm that explicitly says it counts as a 4 hit die creature.

again, if we're trying to claim that we're just following the rules, that specific swarm (and any others i may not have noticed that use the same rule) don't counts as a single creature. not for a specific purpose, but as a general rule.

I don't personally like the idea of using swarms, but if you want to allow a lifejammer to feed off as many creatures as can be put within it, perhaps you might want to look to the rules for Turning Undead for inspiration on which creatures inside the lifejammer get killed first.

(I'd go for the ones with the least hit points dying first with any creatures that only have one hit point dying automatically, unless there are more of them than the damage the lifejammer causes.)

[Big Mac]

We had a lifejammer recently, in AuldDragon's game. I had my character state that he wanted to destroy it, because it was evil, the paladin joined in with that, and everyone forgot it was worth 80,000gpb (or enough money to buy a Hammership and have change).

If you can find a buyer, that is. In some ports, selling one might be a crime, too.

Sounds about right.

That's probably how I'd do it in a game I ran. But there must be plenty of places where they would buy and sell a lifejammer on the black market.

[night_druid]

We had a lifejammer recently, in AuldDragon's game. I had my character state that he wanted to destroy it, because it was evil, the paladin joined in with that, and everyone forgot it was worth 80,000gpb (or enough money to buy a Hammership and have change).

If you can find a buyer, that is. In some ports, selling one might be a crime, too.

Sounds about right.

That's probably how I'd do it in a game I ran. But there must be plenty of places where they would buy and sell a lifejammer on the black market.

A pally? Trying to sell something on the black market? Yeah, that's a rather...combustible situation. I really only see two outcomes - either somebody loses pally status, or that will be one HELL of a battle.

[AuldDragon]

I said it. It's in the "Take Off and Landing" section of Chapter 4 Movement & Combat, in Concordance of Arcane Space. But it only applies to taking off from a celestial body of class A or greater, so would not apply to a ship taking off from another ship (like a Battle Dolphin shuttle launching).

Ahh, okay, I'd completely forgotten that. (I knew you said, but assumed it was based off of something I said). I shouldn't have applied that to the Wasp, then. Definitely feel free to question me when I diverge from the rules; I may not be doing it intentionally and may want to stick to them when I'm made aware of it.

Jeff

[Big Mac]

I said it. It's in the "Take Off and Landing" section of Chapter 4 Movement & Combat, in Concordance of Arcane Space. But it only applies to taking off from a celestial body of class A or greater, so would not apply to a ship taking off from another ship (like a Battle Dolphin shuttle launching).

Ahh, okay, I'd completely forgotten that. (I knew you said, but assumed it was based off of something I said). I shouldn't have applied that to the Wasp, then. Definitely feel free to question me when I diverge from the rules; I may not be doing it intentionally and may want to stick to them when I'm made aware of it.

I had forgotten myself.

I just saw the 1d8 warm up time, and didn't spot that it was only for taking off from celestial bodies.

Plus I know you might want to diverge from some rules and use your own house rules, so I don't get pushy about rules. I'll be more likely to PM you, unless it sounds like you are trying to remember a rule.

[Big Mac]

But that's not what the rules say; the ruleset that included Lifejammer helms doesn't say anything of the sort about swarms.

I don't think I would allow swarms to power lifejammers either.

The interesting thing, is that if people allow anything to power a lifejammer you are going to get PCs who put anything in there from oozes to clockwork horrors.

I think you need to have some sort of limit on a lifejammer.

[Halvor]

Why not take this idea in another direction? What about a spelljamming company we will call Doctor Kevorkian Transports? Agents of Doctor Kevorkian Transports recruit willing volunteers to power lifejammers from the ranks of those with terminal illnesses, crippling injuries, etc. that lack the wherewithal to procure magical cures. Agents of Doctor Kevorkian Transports scourer impoverished groundling nations for volunteers. The offer volunteers a chance to make one final meaningful contribution to the universe and a payment of 25 to 50 gps for their services (a small sum for a spacer, but on a backwater world it would be a princely sum that could be enough to buy an apprenticeship for a child or grandchild or more. Even skilled tradesmen like stonemasons can expect pay of 4 gps a month, laborers, grooms, etc. can earn much less according to the DMG, so 25 gps is more than a year's wages for most groundlings)

[shesheyan]

Why not take this idea in another direction? What about a spelljamming company we will call Doctor Kevorkian Transports? Agents of Doctor Kevorkian Transports recruit willing volunteers to power lifejammers from the ranks of those with terminal illnesses, crippling injuries, etc. that lack the wherewithal to procure magical cures. Agents of Doctor Kevorkian Transports scourer impoverished groundling nations for volunteers. The offer volunteers a chance to make one final meaningful contribution to the universe and a payment of 25 to 50 gps for their services (a small sum for a spacer, but on a backwater world it would be a princely sum that could be enough to buy an apprenticeship for a child or grandchild or more. Even skilled tradesmen like stonemasons can expect pay of 4 gps a month, laborers, grooms, etc. can earn much less according to the DMG, so 25 gps is more than a year's wages for most groundlings)

Interesting twist.

[Jaid]

it could also become part of a religion or even just a cultural thing, that death while powering a helm is a great honour (we've got people irl willing to agree to blow themselves up to murder other people, so it doesn't seem that improbable to imagine a group that harnesses that for less destructive uses).

particularly if the society uses death helms instead of lifejammers, where the death helm seems to be a far more pleasant experience for the person powering it.