Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

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Zeromaru X
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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am

Tharizdun is the Chained God AND the Elder Elemental Evil in 4e. Is part of his backstory and you can see it in earlier products such as the first DMG. So perhaps is that they changed the lore about this in 4e.

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by willpell » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:55 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
Tharizdun is the Chained God AND the Elder Elemental Evil in 4e. Is part of his backstory and you can see it in earlier products such as the first DMG. So perhaps is that they changed the lore about this in 4e.
Every reference I ever saw in 3E also indicated that the two were one. I suspect this is a matter of them leaving the matter somewhat unclear, so that gamers who wanted to run Elemental Evil, but who didn't like Tharizdun as a concept, could claim that the two were distinct.

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:04 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
Tharizdun is the Chained God AND the Elder Elemental Evil in 4e. Is part of his backstory and you can see it in earlier products such as the first DMG. So perhaps is that they changed the lore about this in 4e.
They changed it in 3e's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. In 2e they were separate, though A Guide to the Ethereal Plane suggested they might be one and the same.

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by BotWizo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:43 pm

Ripvanwormer is correct it was changed in 3e and 4e,
I tend to subscribe to the older interpretation, similar to how the Greyhawk Grognard blog broke down TEE lore where Tharizdun is a usurper, or should be eliminated from EE plotlines.

Zeromaru X is correct in 4e it was Tharizdun who is behind Elemental Evil.
The reason they went to Tharizdun as the EEG is that he is the chained god, since Lolth in GDQ (1e) had the EEG imprisoned so in 3e/4e they (new wizos) went chained = imprisoned.

If you want to build off of T1-4 and GDQ1-8 as well as RtTEE, then this would push you to eventually remove Tharizdun or place him in a similar role as Iuz or Lolth had in the 1e modules.

In following 4e lore you could just remove Iuz and replace Tharizdun in his role, and then still have the ominous EEG in the background, since even T1-4 and GDQ1-8 went through revision where originally the EEG was to be loosed in the bottom of the temple or in the GD part of GDQ. Iuz and lolth were not really part of the plotline before it was rewritten. Mister Mentzer could comment more on that if he sees any of these posts.
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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:35 am

Added the Beast of Talgora to the Primal Spirits list. There is a Dragon article about this spirit in Dragon 396

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:04 am

Added a new bound primordial and a few titans from the module "Revenge of the Giants".

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Tim Baker » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:02 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:04 am
Added a new bound primordial and a few titans from the module "Revenge of the Giants".
Do you happen to know if Revenge of the Giants is intended as a sequel to the Against the Giants series? Or is it an homage that you would play instead of Against the Giants? I ask because my DM is running Against the Giants for us (converting from AD&D), and if this is a sequel I'll suggest it. If it's intended to be run instead of Against the Giants, then we'd skip it (no need to run what's essentially the same adventure path twice).
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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:24 am

Nope, they are not related. It's a bid of some giants to free a primordial named Piranoth (who created all giantkind in the Dawn War). It's like a last flare up of the Dawn War.

There is an official conversion to 4e of Against the Giants, by Chris Perkins. I've never runned it, but some say is one of the best adventure past for 4e (cuz Perkins).

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Tim Baker » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:44 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:24 am
There is an official conversion to 4e of Against the Giants, by Chris Perkins. I've never runned it, but some say is one of the best adventure past for 4e (cuz Perkins).
Ah, Dungeon Magazine issues 197-200. Thanks!
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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:02 pm

Added Thoon to the "Others" list. I guess that "it" deserves to be here now that we have an actual 4e reference.

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:41 am

Updated with two new gods (alive!), and a sealed primordial.

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:32 am

Well, it seems that the Egyptian pantheon is canon in Nentir Vale, according to Into the Unknown (sourcebook).

Added Osiris, Zargon and this atropal that is about to become a god to the list of gods.

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:27 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:32 am
Well, it seems that the Egyptian pantheon is canon in Nentir Vale, according to Into the Unknown (sourcebook).

Added Osiris, Zargon and this atropal that is about to become a god to the list of gods.
Is this from the synopsis of the Forgotten Realms adventure Pharaoh? I haven't looked at that sourcebook for a while, but I don't remember that section placing the classic adventures in the Nentir Vale. I know that wasn't an uncommon practice for 4e adventures, but in this case, I thought it was being referenced in its classic, Forgotten Realms context. I could have missed the tie to Nentir Vale, though.
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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Zeromaru X » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:09 am

Yeah, is from that section. All dungeons in that sourcebook are adapted to be part of the "general D&D world" of 4e, so the default world of Nentir Vale.

An article in Dragon 424 also states that the Desert of Desolation adventures may have happened in a world "older" than Faerun (the default world). Also, the Conquest of Nerath boardgame also used the Desert of Desolation as a location. Arkhosia was located there.

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Re: Gods, Primordials and other powers of the Dawn War

Post by Tim Baker » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:20 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:09 am
Yeah, is from that section. All dungeons in that sourcebook are adapted to be part of the "general D&D world" of 4e, so the default world of Nentir Vale.

An article in Dragon 424 also states that the Desert of Desolation adventures may have happened in a world "older" than Faerun (the default world). Also, the Conquest of Nerath boardgame also used the Desert of Desolation as a location. Arkhosia was located there.
Ah, great find. Then it sounds like you're absolutely right.
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