Gnome Realms of Mystara

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Havard
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Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

GNOME REALMS OF MYSTARA
"I don't know if we will ever meet again. This land has not been kind to us these past few years, with our cities falling one after another. We have strongholds in other lands, places were our race is flourishing. I think you know the place I mean."
- Gnome Survivor of Torkyn Falls, Dragonlord Trilogy, Book 1

Gnome Communties on Brun
Rockhome
Location: Rockhome
Population: Unknown (Earth Gnomes)
Source: PC2
Comment: PC2 says quite a few Gnomes live in Rockhome (p11).

Torkyn Falls (Ruins)
Location: Glantri
Population: 0 (Earth Gnome Ruins)
Source: Dragonlord Trilogy
Comments: This would be a great adventure location. What artifacts may have been left behind?

Empire of Dorfin IV
Location: Western Brun?
Population: Unknown - Earth Gnomes
Sources: Master Set Map, VotPA
Comments: Does this realm exist? If it does and Haldemar is wrong, then it is probably much smaller than shown on the Master Set Map.

Highforge
Location: Karameikos
Population 5.000 gnomes (6.500 before WotI) - Mainly Earth Gnomes
Sources: Gaz1, Book of Wondrous Inventions, K:KoA


Supreme Symposium of Gnome Syndicates
Location: Ierendi
Population: Unknown, see below (Earth Gnomes and Sky Gnomes)
Sources: Gaz2
Fans have discussed that this is in fact not a community, but a gathering of gnomes from all other Gnome realms all over Mystara.


Falun Caves Auld Gnomes (Ruins)
Location: Northern Reaches
Sources: Gaz7
Comments: Some of these Gnomes may have survived going deep under ground which was the basis of the UnderYord concept (see below). These Gnomes likely had access to Blackmoor devices.


Serraine, Flying City of
Location: Above the Known World
Population: ca 2.500 gnomes (Mainly Sky gnomes, some Earth Gnomes)
Source: PC2

Northern Gnomes
Location: Unclear. LoZompatore places them just west of Norwold in ( in this article)
Source: Book of Wondrous Inventions
Comments: These have ice skating technology

Hule and the Great Pass
Population: Fewer than 50.000 gnomes (My estimate is more like 10.000, still that would be a lot). Earth Gnomes, likely.
Source: PWA AC1012, X5
Comments: Possibly connected to the Black Mountians Dwarves. X5 details cursed Gnomes living in the Great Pass.

Forest Gnome Communities
Location: Norwold
Population: Unknown (Forest Gnomes)
Source: Dragon #237
Comments: These Forest Gnomes are known to have Lupin allies from the Gnomish Snoutzer Breed. Fan theory: They are also on friendly terms with local Shargughs.

Alphatian Empire
Stoutfellow
Location: Denwarf-Hurgon, Alphatia
Population: 15.000 gnomes (Earth Gnomes, likely)
Source: DotE, PWAs

Aegos Pit (Ruins)
Location: Aegos
Population: 0
Source: WotI
Comments: While some of the 500 gnomes brought to construct the Tunnel were later brought into the HW, some may have been around when the tunnel collapsed, leading to Undead Gnomes? Fabrizio suggested these Gnomes might be from Highforge, but I think Gnomes from Stoutfellow might be more likely given that this was an Alphatian operation.

New New Mistrhaven
Location: Alphatia, on the ruins of New Mistrhaven
Population: Unknown (Earth Gnomes, Water Gnomes?)
Source: Book of Wondrous Inventions
Note: Home of the creators of the first Gnome submersible. Suggested by LoZompatore that these Gnomes were the creators of the Alphatian subersible fleet at Aquas. Workshop of the Gnome inventor Winchesmira might still be found un the ruins below the city. Zompatore also suggested this unused Clockwork Realm coat of Arms from Bruce Heard's Alphatia articles could be usedd to represent the city or another Gnomish Realm.


Davania
Ice Gnomes
Location: Vulcania
Population: Unknown (Earth Gnomes, Ice Gnomes?)
Source: HW Boxed Set Map, CM4 Earthshaker,

Snartan Empire
Location: Vulcania
Population: Unknown (Earth Gnomes, Ice Gnomes?)
Source: CM4 Earthshaker, VotPA, Bruce Heard's articles on Pandius

Land of the Earthshakers
Location: Vulcania
Population: Unknown (Earth Gnomes, Ice Gnomes?)
Source: CM4 Earthshaker, Book of Wonderous Inventions, VotPA, Bruce Heard's articles on Pandius

Hollow World

Oostdok
Population: 20.000 gnomes (Sky Gnomes)
Source: PWAs, VotPA


Alphatian Neatharum
Location: Iciria
Population: ca 500 gnomes (Earth Gnomes)
Source: PWAs.
Comments: See Aegos Pit for more details

Speculation
  • Rockhome: No Gnomes living among their cousins in the Dwarf homeland? I always found that odd.
  • Actius, Thyatis: Seems likely that Gnomes were invoved in creating some of the more spectacular sea war machines like The Shark. See this thread for details .
  • Buhrohur, Thyatis: As with Rockhome, perhaps some of their cousins might feel at home here?
  • Darokin: I could see several Gnome communties existing here.
  • Alfheim: If Forest Gnomes do exist on Mystara, could they be living amongst the elves here? Or perhaps move them to the Midlands? A connection to the Shargurghs (of AC9) have been suggested by Robin and others.
  • Ylaruam: There are Desert Dwarves. How about Desert Gnomes? Possible connections to Cynidicea could suggest Gnome slaves trapped by Barimoor? Gnomes were involved in the creation of the Gnoll race afterall.

Fan Created Gnome Communities
Karameikos Ice Gnomes
Pedtrhart Gnomes (Davania)
UnderYord (below the Northern Reaches)
Deepreach Gazetteer, by Morphail (Undersea Gnome City)

See Also:
Gnomish Timeline, by Fabrizio Paoli
Robin's Gnome Timeline
Gnomes for 5E in Mystara Discussion



Did I forget anything?

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by LoZompatore »

New new Mistrhaven from the BoWI. They are likely the inventors of the submersible fleet of Aquas

;)

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

LoZompatore wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:20 pm
New new Mistrhaven from the BoWI. They are likely the inventors of the submersible fleet of Aquas
Ah yes, I remember this one now. :D

Did we ever settle on where New new Mistrhaven ought to be located?

Edit:
My notes have the following from Book of Wondrous Inventions:
Havard's notes wrote:Winchesmira
Associated Invention: Gnomish Submersible
A Gnome who lived in New Mistraven after the destruction of Old Mistraven. New Mistraven was destroyed in a caraclysm and was replaced by New New Mistraven, but Winchesmira disappeared in the incident. His workshops are belived to still be found deep beneath the new city.
Note: Created by Jeff Gubb
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

Added New New Mistrhaven under the Alphatian Empire section for now:
Havard wrote:New New Mistrhaven
Location: Alphatia, on the ruins of New Mistrhaven
Population: Unknown (Earth Gnomes, Water Gnomes?)
Source: Book of Wondrous Inventions
Note: Home of the creators of the first Gnome submersible. Suggested by LoZompatore that these Gnomes were the creators of the Alphatian subersible fleet at Aquas. Workshop of the Gnome inventor Winchesmira might still be found un the ruins below the city. Zompatore also suggested this unused Clockwork Realm coat of Arms from Bruce Heard's Alphatia articles could be usedd to represent the city or another Gnomish Realm.
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

I was never quite clear on the storyline with the Snartan Empire.

This article, also by LoZompatore, has a map that seems to suggest the Ice Gnomes are a separate realm from that of the Snartan Empire.

Also, the Land of the Earthshakers is a separate region.

The idea of various Gnome factions on Vulcania is supported by other fan articles on Pandius.

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Robin »

I had created a few Gnome locations;

Northern Gnomes
In the very North Above and underground with a lot of steam dribven machinery (creating the fog this location is known for)\
Trail-map-North-360178285

Great Pass
Froggacopter
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=75#p156202

Sturm added some compiled information here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=100#p156852

The democratic Republic of Dulbagir
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=125#p159137
Which will come to be somewhere after 1010AC

Damn..I truly have to return to the Great Pass...
Hmmm something in my to-do-list in the nearby future
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

Great additions Robin!
Robin wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 pm
I had created a few Gnome locations;

Northern Gnomes
In the very North Above and underground with a lot of steam dribven machinery (creating the fog this location is known for)\
Trail-map-North-360178285
Are these the same Northern Gnomes from Book of Wonderous Inventions just with a different location than what LoZompatore suggested, or would it be a separate group?
Great Pass
Froggacopter
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=75#p156202

Sturm added some compiled information here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=100#p156852

The democratic Republic of Dulbagir
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=125#p159137
Which will come to be somewhere after 1010AC

Damn..I truly have to return to the Great Pass...
Hmmm something in my to-do-list in the nearby future
Great stuff! Thanks for all the links!

-Havard

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

I came across this comment from NPCDave in the Shargugh thread:
NPCDave wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:27 pm
I would agree shargugh are fey/faerie kind.

I am aware of one definite Mystara reference to forest gnomes, which is in the lupin article of Dragon Magazine #237. The gnomish snoutzer lupin breed is described as being aligned and having a good relationship with forest gnomes. Nothing else is said of these forest gnomes, so I am not sure if forest gnomes were a 2E race described somewhere or if Bruce Heard just added that as a throwaway reference.
This canonical reference lead me to believe that there are indeed Forest Gnomes on Mystara. Looking through some material from Threshold #2 suggested that Gnome Snoutzer Lupins are found in Norwold. I suppose that would also mean there are Forest Gnome Settlements there?

Forest Gnome Communities
Location: Norwold
Population: Unknown (Forest Gnomes)
Source: Dragon #237
Comments: These Forest Gnomes are known to have Lupin allies from the Gnomish Snoutzer Breed. Fan theory: They are also on friendly terms with local Shargughs.

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Robin »

Havard wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:48 pm
Great additions Robin!
Robin wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 pm
I had created a few Gnome locations;

Northern Gnomes
In the very North Above and underground with a lot of steam driven machinery (creating the fog this location is known for)\
Trail-map-North-360178285
Are these the same Northern Gnomes from Book of Wonderous Inventions just with a different location than what LoZompatore suggested, or would it be a separate group?
I made this map section based on these Northern Gnomes of the Book of Wondrous inventions...As there was no such location it seemed to me it needed one. The whole region is a under ground maze of tunnels flooded with water seeping down from the surface, and being heated by a layer of magma several tens of feet below this. making the tunnels extra ordinary warm, and steamed. the gnomes detected this, and combined it with a ventilation system to the outside, making use of the steam current energy being thus generated. Outside there are several steam vents (square symbol within hexes), the steam is caught by the Northern cold within this large valley, making it a perpetual foggy, heavy foggy, and clammy region. as thus the temperature is average temperate, although it should have been colder. This is the only region where rain and fog can exist together (rain origunates higher in the sky or was even snow, molten by the local warm temperature into rain). this is normally not possible.
Btw funny to see LoZompsatore and I came about almost the same location ;)
My location was placed above his bleu line, while his are below..
I could imagine them both being the same
Havard wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:48 pm
Great Pass
Froggacopter
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=75#p156202

Sturm added some compiled information here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=100#p156852

The democratic Republic of Dulbagir
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13325&start=125#p159137
Which will come to be somewhere after 1010AC

Damn..I truly have to return to the Great Pass...
Hmmm something in my to-do-list in the nearby future
Great stuff! Thanks for all the links!

-Havard
Great ;) Hope it will be useful.
I will return to the Future republic democracy of Dulgabir in the future...i was totally forgotten I worked on this before I became sick.
Gnomes (the former slaves in the Great Pass) and immigrant gnomes (and other) from elsewhere will create this new nation.
While creating this I saw how alive this spot actually has bome due my creations formed by the help of the many others... I like it still a lot.
The creative mind of the gentle almost pacifistic (or at least democratic) Gnomes always surprises me.

I also had created the D&D smurf by an Alphatian mage named Peyo from Gnome, Sprite and Pixie Blood from creatures died by accidents (so not killed intentionally, for he wanted a friendly intelligent Golem/creature). Together with Mandrake root harvested in a nearby swamp he shaped this living tiny Gnome Golem. http://www.pandius.com/smurfs.html

I would also add the Gremln to the Gnome species
2900 BC The new Dwarf Immortal Garal Glitterlode creates the Gnomes (and as an unforeseen byproduct the Gremlins).
Don't remember where i found this but it is in my notes (possible the old TSR forum)...this might assume that gremlins could be more gnome ralated than expected.
As the canon source speaks of an unknown Entropic Immortal creating the Gremlin, it might be he actually meddled with Garal's creation, due which not only Gnomes but also Gremlins came to be...hence it was actually the Entropic Immortal responsible for the creation of the Gremlin and Garal for the basic process of creation and the gnomes. interesting aspect though...as it would explain why these can mostly be seen near the other.
I can almost imagine gnomes stepping from the creation pot, ad gremlins sneaking unseen out of it.


I also wonder; as the Gnome was an (unwilling) component into the creation of Gnolls...what gnomish would still be within them...as apparently it was a needed component to create the Gnoll...at least as far as the Nithian mages could think of.

As to the Shargugh....I had discovered they are indeed fairykin but also dwarven origin. About 700 years after their creation by Garal, they combined with fairies (Probably Brownies)https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -510354620 Here the total compilation on the Shargugh...If interested I have these compilations also on the Gnome, skygnome, deepgnome..just ask ;)
And if there are forest gnomes/Shargugh in the canolbarth...absolutely (as per CM7 i believe), but with the Canolbarth demise they would relocate much sooner than the elves, probably at the same time as the fairies elsewhere or even together with them...to the other plane.. on the otherhand they would also return much earlier.
Shargugh-Forest Gnome (Homus minor Sylvestris)
Shargugh (pronounced SHAR-guh) are small hairy humanoids. The smallest of all the gnomes, they average 2 to 3 feet in height.
Their long, chronically matted and tangled hair is usually walnut brown, although some rare individuals have dark-green locks. In addition, males have long, unkempt beards. Shargugh complexions tend to be dark and ruddy with bark-colored, gray-green skin, dark hair.
Their features coarse but oddly handsome, their eyes amber, deep green, blue, or brown.
Shargugh wear ragged brown or green clothing made from woven leaves, grass, and scraps of fur and old cloth. They rarely if ever wear shoes.
Adults of either sex weigh between 30 and 40 pounds.
Shy and elusive, the forest gnomes live deep in forests and shun contact with other races except in times of dire emergencies threatening their beloved woods.
A very long-lived people, they have an average life expectancy of 500 years.

Languages
Most forest gnomes can speak gnome, Fairy, Treant, and the secret tongue of druids; about 35% also speak Common. They also speak a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest mammals.

Combat:
A Shargugh can deliver a nasty bite, but 50% of all groups arm themselves with daggers or short swords. At least one member of an armed group will have a silver weapon.
All Shargugh are expert stone throwers; each typically carries 1d4+1 stones and can hurl one per round (with a range of 20’ / 40’ / 60’). These stones inflict 1d4 points of damage; a Shargugh gains a +3 bonus to attack rolls when hurling them.
They are sometimes armed with silver daggers. Forest gnomes prefer booby traps and missile weapons to melee weapons when dealing with enemies. Due to size and quickness they receive a -4 bonus to Armor Class whenever they are fighting larger than human sized creatures. Forest gnomes receive a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls when fighting orcs, lizardmen, troglodytes, or any other creature which they have seen damage their forest.

Thievery
Shargugh are mischievous and are likely to steal valuable objects from any creature encountering them. They are able to pick pockets with an 85% chance of success and move silently 85% of the time.
To dissuade Shargugh from stealing, woodland folk often leave offerings of food and drink far the creatures. In return for this, Shargugh have been known to carry out small but useful tasks.

Abilities
Shargugh are well adapted to their woodland homes and can pass through brambles and undergrowth with ease, just as druids can. All forest gnomes have the innate ability to Pass without Trace (as the spell). They are also able to hide in woods, with a 90% chance of success. They can climb vines and trees just as a thief climbs walls (75% chance) and can move silently 85% chance.
Five times a day, a Shargugh can use transport via plants, though the maximum distance it can travel is 600 yards. The Shargugh always has a 100% chance of arriving at the location it desires, so long as the location is within the 600-yard range.
They aggressively protect their woodland homes and do not tolerate wanton destruction of forests. They use their ability to hide in and move through undergrowth to avoid hand-to-hand combat with stronger creatures. Their pick pocket and transport via plants abilities enable them to steal weapons and spell components from their foes, then throw stones from a safe distance.

Habitat/Society:
Shargugh live singly or in family groups. Families usually number three (two parents and a single offspring). The young Shargugh will be a noncombatant infant 25% of the time and a juvenile or young adult with full adult abilities 75% of the time.
Each family occupying a large, hollowed-out tree. Most of these villages are disguised so well that even an elf or a ranger could walk through one without realizing it.
A young Shargugh never really leaves its parent’s territory. The youngster either remains until its parents die, in which case it inherits their territory, or the youngster and parents move to opposite sides of the parents’ territory. Eventually, the two groups form two entirely new territories with a common border.

Forest Connection
Each individual or group has a woodland territory roughly equal in area to a 24-mile-wide wilderness hexagon. Shargugh have symbiotic relationships with their territories. The shargugh’s life force both draws strength from and gives strength to its woodland home. In addition, Shargugh actively care for their territories-pruning the trees, picking the fruit, and fend off external threats.
A Shargugh will never voluntarily leave its territory, and if forced to do so, will sicken and die in 1-2 days unless returned before that time. Any section of woodland whose Shargugh is killed will became cursed and infertile for 7 years. During that time, no new plants or trees will grow. Existing plants and trees will continue to grow, but will not bear any fruit or flowers. A druid who casts a remove curse spell can restore fertility to the land of at least 12th level or a wish can restore fertility to the land before the end of the seven years at any time.
Shargugh generally maintain friendly relations with any good or neutral woodland creatures living in their territory and will tolerate evil creatures as well, provided that these creatures do not harm the woods or try to subjugate the Shargugh. Dryads, centaurs, unicorns, and treants usually can count on the Shargugh as allies.

The Shargugh are a tribe of gnomes who delved deep into fairy and nature magic, and became mixed with it. In fact they have become a cross of Gnome and Fairy. This not only explains their magical abilities, but also their mischievous habits.

A Shargugh can live about 250 years, longer than a normal Gnome due to the fairy magic.

Ecology:
Forest gnomes are guardians of the woods and friends to the animals that live there. They will often help lost travelers but will strive to remain unseen while doing so.



Other Gnomish stuff I created or compiled you might like
Gnomish Timeline I compiled from the various sources;http://www.pandius.com/gnomes.html discard the nuclear rocket I impose in the serraine section; This i have to readjust...I gave the creation of the broken lands a much better origin now.
Dwarven Gnomish dictionary; http://www.pandius.com/dwarf.gnome.xls
Gnomish skyships; http://www.pandius.com/gnmsship.html
My Deviantart page; http://6inchnails.deviantart.com/ For Mystara hexmaps and Fantasy art
(to see all fantasy art; log inn and declare you are an adult...frigging exposure rules)

My personal Mystara Blog;http://breathofmystara.blogspot.nl/ with lots of information, soon active again.

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Cthulhudrew »

I am not a big fan of sub-races by and large (full disclosure) but in a world where there are such, it always particularly nagged at me that there were Earth Gnomes, Sky Gnomes, Ice Gnomes- and no apparent Fire Gnomes but maybe Forest Gnomes. We've got a perfectly good attempt at making an elemental based concept for Gnomish subraces, and tosses it out the window to make it random.

But then I just got to thinking- maybe it doesn't. Yes, an elemental paradigm with those races might not fit into the current Mystara elemental cosmology, but they might fit into a different one. I'm thinking specifically of the 5 elemental Wu Xing concept. If Mystara gnomes are based around that cosmology, then we might see something like this:

Earth Gnomes (Earth): Highforge, Falun, various other communities on Mystara
Sky Gnomes (Air): Serraine, Oostdok
Ice Gnomes (Water): Some groups in Vulcania (as yet undescribed)
Forest Gnomes (Wood): Gnomish communities near Canolbarth forest, etc.
Fire Gnomes (Fire): Torkyn Falls gnomes, Ierendi gnomes (Gnomish Symposium, helped create the FIreships)
Metal Gnomes (Metal): Earthshaker gnomes, Snartans
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Robin »

i don't think the variety of gnomes were elemental based by the D&D creators...
at first it was just gnome...then came the AD&D deepgnome and svirnebli, the pc2 with the skygnomes and AD&D2 with the tinker gnomes.
this wasdifferentiated the gnome into deep/earth and skygnomes..and later versions stacked seemingly elemental gnomes upon this...at least that is what one of the typical D&D artist (Jeff Easley? Clyde Caldwell?--I truly forgot) in a eurogencon once told me.
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Cthulhudrew »

Robin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:09 am
i don't think the variety of gnomes were elemental based by the D&D creators...
You're right, I should have been more clear; I was really just referring to gnomes as they appear on Mystara. Initially, they were just "gnomes," but once Top Ballista (PC2) came out, they suddenly became earth or sky gnomes. Then there was a brief blurb in the Hollow World boxed set about ice gnomes, all of which kind of set up a Mystara-premise of gnomes being elemental connected (if only by inference).
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Sturm »

I have gathered and expanded a lot of canon and fan informations on gnomes in several issues of Threshold, mostly issue #5 on Davania, #14 on the Shadowdeep, #16 on Dwarves, Hin and Gnomes, #17 on Western Brun.
In general I think it makes sense gnomes exist in all the continents and certainly also in Rockhome. They may have their origin in Brun as offshots of ancient brutemen, as it was speculated by fan for dwarves.
I dismiss as religious myth the story about Garal creating the gnomes only after the Great Rain of Fire, as I dismiss any such story of creationism, mostly because I find it boring as it ruins the possibility to have an interesting ancient history.
Probably Garal just modified the gnomish race as Kagyar did with the dwarves. We know Kagyar did it because the dwarves were corrupted by the aftermath of Blackmoor technomancy (check also Chimpman 2300 BC setting http://pandius.com/shimland.html) so it would be interesting if the gnomes too were somehow corrupted, even if fan have speculated they were resistant to the Wasting, the disease created by failing Blackmoor technomagic. Not a physical corruption, but a moral one?
What if these ancient corrupt gnomes still exist somewhere, maybe in the Shadowdeep? :)
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:29 am
I am not a big fan of sub-races by and large (full disclosure) but in a world where there are such, it always particularly nagged at me that there were Earth Gnomes, Sky Gnomes, Ice Gnomes- and no apparent Fire Gnomes but maybe Forest Gnomes. We've got a perfectly good attempt at making an elemental based concept for Gnomish subraces, and tosses it out the window to make it random.

But then I just got to thinking- maybe it doesn't. Yes, an elemental paradigm with those races might not fit into the current Mystara elemental cosmology, but they might fit into a different one. I'm thinking specifically of the 5 elemental Wu Xing concept. If Mystara gnomes are based around that cosmology, then we might see something like this:

Earth Gnomes (Earth): Highforge, Falun, various other communities on Mystara
Sky Gnomes (Air): Serraine, Oostdok
Ice Gnomes (Water): Some groups in Vulcania (as yet undescribed)
Forest Gnomes (Wood): Gnomish communities near Canolbarth forest, etc.
Fire Gnomes (Fire): Torkyn Falls gnomes, Ierendi gnomes (Gnomish Symposium, helped create the FIreships)
Metal Gnomes (Metal): Earthshaker gnomes, Snartans
I find that these discussions are put into new perspective when using Mystara with other editions/rulesets. Gnomes from Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms have often been portrayed as having an affinity for illusion magic. Mystara Gnomes, from PC2 and onwards appear to have a similar affinity for elemental magic relating to either Earth or Air. They are also skilled at creating inventions that defy the laws of physics. In this manner they are similar to Krynnish Gnomes, but Mystara Gnomes seem to be more successful at their inventions. The connection to Blackmoor and being able to use Blackmoor devices to power their more spectacular inventions may have been a factor of this.

We don't know if Ice Gnomes have similar Ice Magic abilities like that of Earth and Sky Gnomes, but it does seem likely.

The addition of Fire and Metal are interesting. Metal is considered an element in the d20 Blackmoor line so perhaps we could draw on that? There is a reference to Fire Dwarves in the Hollow World. Perhaps these are actually Gnomes?

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

Sturm wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:16 am
I have gathered and expanded a lot of canon and fan informations on gnomes in several issues of Threshold, mostly issue #5 on Davania, #14 on the Shadowdeep, #16 on Dwarves, Hin and Gnomes, #17 on Western Brun.
In general I think it makes sense gnomes exist in all the continents and certainly also in Rockhome. They may have their origin in Brun as offshots of ancient brutemen, as it was speculated by fan for dwarves.
I dismiss as religious myth the story about Garal creating the gnomes only after the Great Rain of Fire, as I dismiss any such story of creationism, mostly because I find it boring as it ruins the possibility to have an interesting ancient history.
Probably Garal just modified the gnomish race as Kagyar did with the dwarves. We know Kagyar did it because the dwarves were corrupted by the aftermath of Blackmoor technomancy (check also Chimpman 2300 BC setting http://pandius.com/shimland.html) so it would be interesting if the gnomes too were somehow corrupted, even if fan have speculated they were resistant to the Wasting, the disease created by failing Blackmoor technomagic. Not a physical corruption, but a moral one?
What if these ancient corrupt gnomes still exist somewhere, maybe in the Shadowdeep? :)
I had forgotten that canonically, Garal Glitterlode / Garl Glittergold was a Dwarf who created the Gnome race in BC 2900. I like your take that Gnomes are much more ancient, but perhaps Garal/Garl created the more modern Gnomes, but not the Elder Gnomes. This fits better with Blackmoor material too, even though Gnomes were never that vital in the Blackmoor setting AFAIK.

Gnomes do seem to be much more widespread than Dwarves. This could also be explained by them being much more adventurous than their Dwarven cousins.

As to Rockhome, I found this reference in PC2:
Top Ballista p 11 wrote:Most Gnomes do indeed live underground. Not a few live with dwarves and work with them, so that Rockhome contains a significant number of them
So I guess PC2 retcons Rockhome which makes no mention of this.

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Carillion »

Interesting thread!

The only comments I have are as follows (in no particular order):

Oldawg placed a gnomish community in the southern part of 'Ye Olde Woode' in Fan Gazetteer 5 (which is West of Norwold), who could therefore be the Forest Gnomes that some of you are referring to.

As for the Northern Gnomes, personally I would go with Robin's placement, as La Zompatore appears to have placed them where Ghyr is situated (according to the fan Gazetteer series). By pushing the Northern gnomes further north as Robin has done, it removes this placement contradiction. Robin's placement is also just south of the tundra line, which also seems to match the brief description given in the 'Book of Wonderous Inventions' on these small folk.

The gnomes from CM4 "Earthshaker" are said to have come from the East. As there are a few references in canon material to gnomes living in the Black Mountains, I therefore think it is plausible that the gnomes controlling Earthshaker are originally from that region. I certainly don't recall any reference to Davania in that module, although it's been a while since I've read it so I may be mistaken on that point!

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

Carillion wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:33 pm
Interesting thread!

The only comments I have are as follows (in no particular order):

Oldawg placed a gnomish community in the southern part of 'Ye Olde Woode' in Fan Gazetteer 5 (which is West of Norwold), who could therefore be the Forest Gnomes that some of you are referring to.
Thanks for mentioning this! It could be OldDawg trying to work in Zompatore's placement, or simply a reference to the original source.
As for the Northern Gnomes, personally I would go with Robin's placement, as La Zompatore appears to have placed them where Ghyr is situated (according to the fan Gazetteer series). By pushing the Northern gnomes further north as Robin has done, it removes this placement contradiction. Robin's placement is also just south of the tundra line, which also seems to match the brief description given in the 'Book of Wonderous Inventions' on these small folk.
I'd even go so far as to leave this for each DM to decide. There could even be multiple settlements of Gnomes. But you make a good argument about getting them out of the way of Ghyr.

The gnomes from CM4 "Earthshaker" are said to have come from the East. As there are a few references in canon material to gnomes living in the Black Mountains, I therefore think it is plausible that the gnomes controlling Earthshaker are originally from that region. I certainly don't recall any reference to Davania in that module, although it's been a while since I've read it so I may be mistaken on that point!
I believe the original reference linking them to Davania is in the Gargantoid section of Book of Wondrous Inventions. I think this is why Zompatore suggested the Earthshaker moved from Davania to Brun via the Serpent Penisula and from there to the Black Mountains and to Glantri before moving north to Norwold.

It is possible that its visit to the Black Mountains was linked to the Gnome population there though?

The idea of a Land of Earthshakers in Vulcania was further developed by Bruce Heard's Snartan Empire material. I am not sure if that debuted in VotPA or simply online. I do believe that there was a reference in VotPA about the Lost Valley (also on Davania) being filled with Giant Sized Monsters and Mechanical Giants fighting evoking Kaiju vs Giant Robots style, but I could be misremembering that?

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Gecko »

Many years ago I remember briefly playing Gariel Noostik, a 3e Earth Gnome Swashbukcler from Freiburg's Small-Folk Ghetto. Made for a surprisingly effective 1st level combatant IIRC. The Noostik Gnomes are from FGAZ7

There was also an old geocities site that expanded on Mystaran gnomes, I had saved it but had never got around to reading it indepth enough to see if it would work for "my Mystara": http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargat ... nomes.html

Over the years I haven't had many gnomes, but the few times I have they always seem to wind up in interesting parties. One of these days I need to do full write up's for some of them, especially for both Gariel's group and Wannlun's Group: Gariel's group (3e) had 2 Unarmed combat specialists - neither of whom were Monks! and Wannlun's (another 3e) was an experiment I did to see if I could A) take randomly determined multiclassing combinations and make reasonable & logical charcters out of that combination & simultanoeusly B) to see if I could bend and/or reskin some races and classes that I had never considered "My Mystaran" appropriate into an appropriate Mystaran feel.

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Robin »

Sturm wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:16 am
...I dismiss as religious myth the story about Garal creating the gnomes only after the Great Rain of Fire, as I dismiss any such story of creationism, mostly because I find it boring as it ruins the possibility to have an interesting ancient history.
Probably Garal just modified the gnomish race as Kagyar did with the dwarves. We know Kagyar did it because the dwarves were corrupted by the aftermath of Blackmoor technomancy (check also Chimpman 2300 BC setting http://pandius.com/shimland.html) so it would be interesting if the gnomes too were somehow corrupted, even if fan have speculated they were resistant to the Wasting, the disease created by failing Blackmoor technomagic. Not a physical corruption, but a moral one?
What if these ancient corrupt gnomes still exist somewhere, maybe in the Shadowdeep? :)
Created or modified...does that realy matter what difference it is? Eitherway the process seems to have been hijacked/disturbed to also create the Gremlin by the unknown Entropic Immortal. It could thus even be that the Garal modification experiment on moraly corrupted Gnomes was the source of the Gremlins, and the uncorrupted ones became the gnomes we know today...one question remains though...did some of the pregnomes survive (OW or HW; on purpose or by themselves...how different would they be....or would the Deep Gnomes/Svirnebli be these pregnomes....?
Just something to ponder on. :mrgreen:
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Sturm »

Havard wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:57 pm
I do believe that there was a reference in VotPA about the Lost Valley (also on Davania) being filled with Giant Sized Monsters and Mechanical Giants fighting evoking Kaiju vs Giant Robots style, but I could be misremembering that?
-Havard
No you are right, there is this reference in VotPA. Later Bruce developed the concept with the Snartan gnomes and other competing clans also with Earthshakers.
I think he never explained or decided if gnomes with Earthshakers went from Davania to Brun or the other way around.
My personal take on this is that gnomes were heavily involved in Blackmoorian technomagic, and developed the original technomagic Earthshaker to fight for Blackmoor in the Beastmen crusades. Later they were also used in Davania against the Serpentine Empire (as per Mishler's timeline of Blackmoor). After the Great Rain of Fire, they rebuilt the Earthshaker from scratch using only mechanical means, as technomagic had become poisonous. The main reason to rebuild them, in Davania, was to fight Ektarmorag, the elf lich ( http://pandius.com/souvulc.html) while in Brun is was done to create the Empire of Dorfin by unifying the immense region of Borea and the Yalu river (and resist humanoid hordes).
Were the northern Earthshakers and the southern Earthshakers developed independently or there is some connection between them? Maybe Serraine spread the new technology? Or maybe it was the Supreme Gnomish Syndicate, which has a sort of secret portal?
I'd like the idea of having the gnomes as unsuspected hidden mastermind of Mystara's history. What's their purpose? Bring back Blackmoor's technology? Fight Chaos in the name of the Law? Or slowly undermine the rule of the Immortals? :)
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Sturm »

Robin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:22 pm
Created or modified...does that realy matter what difference it is? Eitherway the process seems to have been hijacked/disturbed to also create the Gremlin by the unknown Entropic Immortal. It could thus even be that the Garal modification experiment on moraly corrupted Gnomes was the source of the Gremlins, and the uncorrupted ones became the gnomes we know today...one question remains though...did some of the pregnomes survive (OW or HW; on purpose or by themselves...how different would they be....or would the Deep Gnomes/Svirnebli be these pregnomes....?
Just something to ponder on. :mrgreen:
I like the idea of a connection between gnomes and gremlins, but I would move it much earlier in time, as in general I like my fantasy races to be ancient, just in case I want to use them in the past.
The Deep gnomes indeed could be the ones Garal did not modify. I would differentiate them from the ones of the Forgotten Realms, but I've not decided how yet. Maybe they could be the Fire gnomes or Metal gnomes Cthulhudrew imagined above..
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

Gecko wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:50 pm
Many years ago I remember briefly playing Gariel Noostik, a 3e Earth Gnome Swashbukcler from Freiburg's Small-Folk Ghetto. Made for a surprisingly effective 1st level combatant IIRC. The Noostik Gnomes are from FGAZ7

There was also an old geocities site that expanded on Mystaran gnomes, I had saved it but had never got around to reading it indepth enough to see if it would work for "my Mystara": http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargat ... nomes.html

Over the years I haven't had many gnomes, but the few times I have they always seem to wind up in interesting parties. One of these days I need to do full write up's for some of them, especially for both Gariel's group and Wannlun's Group: Gariel's group (3e) had 2 Unarmed combat specialists - neither of whom were Monks! and Wannlun's (another 3e) was an experiment I did to see if I could A) take randomly determined multiclassing combinations and make reasonable & logical charcters out of that combination & simultanoeusly B) to see if I could bend and/or reskin some races and classes that I had never considered "My Mystaran" appropriate into an appropriate Mystaran feel.
That's a nice story Gecko! I'd love to see a writeup for those groups! :)

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Havard »

Sturm wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:27 am
Havard wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:57 pm
I do believe that there was a reference in VotPA about the Lost Valley (also on Davania) being filled with Giant Sized Monsters and Mechanical Giants fighting evoking Kaiju vs Giant Robots style, but I could be misremembering that?
-Havard
No you are right, there is this reference in VotPA. Later Bruce developed the concept with the Snartan gnomes and other competing clans also with Earthshakers.
I think he never explained or decided if gnomes with Earthshakers went from Davania to Brun or the other way around.
My personal take on this is that gnomes were heavily involved in Blackmoorian technomagic, and developed the original technomagic Earthshaker to fight for Blackmoor in the Beastmen crusades. Later they were also used in Davania against the Serpentine Empire (as per Mishler's timeline of Blackmoor). After the Great Rain of Fire, they rebuilt the Earthshaker from scratch using only mechanical means, as technomagic had become poisonous. The main reason to rebuild them, in Davania, was to fight Ektarmorag, the elf lich ( http://pandius.com/souvulc.html) while in Brun is was done to create the Empire of Dorfin by unifying the immense region of Borea and the Yalu river (and resist humanoid hordes).
Were the northern Earthshakers and the southern Earthshakers developed independently or there is some connection between them? Maybe Serraine spread the new technology? Or maybe it was the Supreme Gnomish Syndicate, which has a sort of secret portal?
I'd like the idea of having the gnomes as unsuspected hidden mastermind of Mystara's history. What's their purpose? Bring back Blackmoor's technology? Fight Chaos in the name of the Law? Or slowly undermine the rule of the Immortals? :)
I could see Gnomes being able to restore Earthshakers of Blackmoor origin on both continents. I think Serraine could easily be used to explain contact between Gnomes all over Mystara.

I don't know if I'd call Gnomes masterminds, but I do like the idea of connecting their affinity for technology to some deep longing for Blackmoor.

I see them more as passionate enthusiasts (Geeks!) than having any real sinister puprose. Though I suppose they could be manipulated like the Shadowelves. OTOH, I would not be surprised to find that Garl/Garel is the biggest geek of them all! :lol:

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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Sturm »

Well the fun could be the option of turning the table around making this "harmless geeks" image just a propaganda stunt to hide a worldwide gnomish conspiracy :) but I've never actually used this theme in play and I am not sure I'll ever use it, it's just an idea.
It could be used also on the contrary as a fabricated hoax against gnomes, Maybe some evil ruler wants to take over their secrets, and for this reason accuses them of a non-existent worldwide conspiracy.
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Re: Gnome Realms of Mystara

Post by Gecko »

Havard wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:42 pm
That's a nice story Gecko! I'd love to see a writeup for those groups! :)
Unfortunately I never had "group names", so even If I found the time to write them up, what topic title would I post them under? I don't know, maybe just a seperate post by character rather than by group. In any event I doubt I'll find the time anytime soon.

Edit: Off topic but I thought I would mention that a draft of the first character from that group is now up:
Michel Druschel, a Shifter Fey-disciple

Edit2: and Wannlun's write up is now posted

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