What has each edition given Blackmoor?

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What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:19 pm

Changes in rules are often just tweaks in the mathematics (and I'm not so excited in things like comparisons of THAC0 vs Base Attack Bonus) but when older campaigns settings get republished under newer rules, there are often expansions to the canon (and I am interested in that).

I don't have many Blackmoor books, so far (and what I do have is mostly the 3e stuff)

What are the most interesting things that have come out of each edition of Blackmoor products?

Is there anything in the OD&D book for Blackmoor that has been dropped in later products, that you think is worth "restoring" to your game?

How much expansion does the Judges Guild product (First Fantasy Campaign) have? Did they have anything else planned for Blackmoor?

How much did the DA products add to Blackmoor? How much work was put into rebooting Blackmoor to make it fit into Mystara's past?

I know that some of the 3e products have the same names as earlier ones. How much of those books is a retread of the earlier book and how much is expansion? Is it worth buying the 3e books to get more content to use in a Mystara game?

How does the 4e Blackmoor book compare to the 3e version (and First Fantasy Campaign)? How much overlap is there? What new stuff is there, that might make a 3e fan want to buy the 4e book? Is there any point in a Classic D&D fan buy either of the core 3e/4e books (or both)?
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm

I can only talk from the perspective of 4e. I guess that the only addition of 4e to the setting were the races. Dragonborn, eladrin and tieflings are introduced to the setting and given their Blackmoorian spin. The book removed gnomes and half-orcs from tge playable races rooster, but I guess is because those weren't in 4e's first PHB, and probably they would have been reintroduced later. They also hinted at the existence of the warlock and warlord classes, but this was not expanded. I guess if the product line wouldn't have died, those issues would've been properly addressed in later books.

As a personal note, I like how they did this organically. Instead of some catasthrope or the like, these races always were there, in some unexplored place (or as a consecuence of the backstory, as is the case of tieflings), but chose not to interact with humans until after 1031. And that was what sold me the setting.

As a player from the "newer guard" I always found the concept of Old School forbidding, like some monolithic, unchangeable thing, that said to us, the new guys, that we were doing things wrong. Don't want to trashtalk, but I found the Kalamar book that forbidding; every time that book address something from 4e, its to say how wrong that was in their setting.

In Blackmoor (THE Old School setting), I found a book that was inviting me to explore the setting, allowing me to experience the old school with all my toys from the newer game, that weren't wrong at all. That was invigorating back then, in the age of the Edition Wars. That's why I bought the Blackmoor sourcebook instead of the Kalamar one (even if I liked Kalamar's cover art better), even if I didn't got invested into the setting until after I read some stuff in Havard's blog, many years later.

I guess that this works backwards. If an old schooler wants to play with one of the new generation races, I guess the 4e sourcebook is a good place to start.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:38 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm
I can only talk from the perspective of 4e. I guess that the only addition of 4e to the setting were the races. Dragonborn, eladrin and tieflings are introduced to the setting and given their Blackmoorian spin. The book removed gnomes and half-orcs from tge playable races rooster, but I guess is because those weren't in 4e's first PHB, and probably they would have been reintroduced later. They also hinted at the existence of the warlock and warlord classes, but this was not expanded. I guess if the product line wouldn't have died, those issues would've been properly addressed in later books.
That's a good presentation of the 4e book. It's interesting for me to hear your thoughts on it. I don't have too much to add. I always wondered if there were some legal limitations that prevented ZGG from adding more classes and races to the 4e book.

The main strength of this book is it's organization. The book manages to include lots of material from several 3e books in that single volume. New interpretations of some 3e BM concepts like classes and PrCs also tells us more about how the designers saw those things. Small New additions are included though the book, like the city of Rodhin.
As a personal note, I like how they did this organically. Instead of some catasthrope or the like, these races always were there, in some unexplored place (or as a consecuence of the backstory, as is the case of tieflings), but chose not to interact with humans until after 1031. And that was what sold me the setting.

As a player from the "newer guard" I always found the concept of Old School forbidding, like some monolithic, unchangeable thing, that said to us, the new guys, that we were doing things wrong. Don't want to trashtalk, but I found the Kalamar book that forbidding; every time that book address something from 4e, its to say how wrong that was in their setting.

In Blackmoor (THE Old School setting), I found a book that was inviting me to explore the setting, allowing me to experience the old school with all my toys from the newer game, that weren't wrong at all. That was invigorating back then, in the age of the Edition Wars. That's why I bought the Blackmoor sourcebook instead of the Kalamar one (even if I liked Kalamar's cover art better), even if I didn't got invested into the setting until after I read some stuff in Havard's blog, many years later.


Interesting perspective. I think that investigating old school playing styles and settings the way they were played originally does have merit. However, it is also very easy to go from that to dictating how others should run their games, or badwrongfun as Big Mac likes to call it. When it comes to Dave Arneson, he and his group were all about experimenting with the game and the genre. Allowing all kinds of PC races is very much in the spirit of original Blackmoor. :)

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by shesheyan » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:10 pm

Interesting. Who published the 4e version of Blackmoor? what it the exact title?

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:53 pm

shesheyan wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:10 pm
Interesting. Who published the 4e version of Blackmoor? what it the exact title?
It is called Blackmoor: the first campaign. Published by Zeitgeist Games and Code Monkey Press

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by shesheyan » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:02 pm

Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:53 pm
shesheyan wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:10 pm
Interesting. Who published the 4e version of Blackmoor? what it the exact title?
It is called Blackmoor: the first campaign. Published by Zeitgeist Games and Code Monkey Press
Thanks.

Outch! 28$ (Canadian) for a PDF is too expensive.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:23 pm

shesheyan wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:02 pm
Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:53 pm
shesheyan wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:10 pm
Interesting. Who published the 4e version of Blackmoor? what it the exact title?
It is called Blackmoor: the first campaign. Published by Zeitgeist Games and Code Monkey Press
Thanks.

Outch! 28$ (Canadian) for a PDF is too expensive.
Since you already have the 3e sourcebook, I think you can live well without the 4e one.

Unless you are obsessed with Blackmoor like me ;)

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Dread Delgath » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:36 pm

I have the Blackmoor Rules Supplement for 0e, First Fantasy Campaign (JG), Adventures in Fantasy (JG?), DA1, DA2, DA3, DA4 (TSR for BECMI rules), a smattering of 3.5 online material for the MMORPG, NOTHING of 4e (I didn't know anything was created for it), and nothing for 5e.

Not to mention a smattering of whatever the original players of Blackmoor have released online at the Comeback Inn. :cool:
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Boddynock » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:58 am

I own the Goodman Games 3.5 version (the one with the brown cover). I do appreciate that the map of the North is on the inside cover. I don't know if it originally came with a poster map as I got my copy in used from Amazon but I do like that I can open the cover whether I'm writing, solo gaming, or if ever I get a chance to run Blackmoor in person that I can show people the North. The part I disliked about this presentation is that it takes place during the Afridhi invasion and occupation of the Duchy of Tenh. A lot of the 3.5 entries involving the Duchy boils down to: This was a nice place. Now it's being ravaged or starved to nothing by the Afridhi conquerors.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the idea that there is this empire threatening the North. I would have preferred the threat of invasion to not be par for the course, and instead be more of a suggested plot thread. So, 3.5 adds heavy invasion and occupation element to the world.

Have to keep Blackmoor 4e in mind next time I got shopping for RPG stuff. I really liked the material I've seen for Rodhin and am flattered that people wanted to steal some of the stuff I did! Also, the version of Blackmoor I'm running over on Crystal Globe is partly the 3.5 world pre-invasion.
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:07 pm

Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:38 pm
I always wondered if there were some legal limitations that prevented ZGG from adding more classes and races to the 4e book.
Maybe? By the time, WotC was trying to change the concepts of gnomes and half-orcs. They created some interesting lore to dissociate that vision players have that all half-orcs come from rape (Yeah, this is a 4e thing that 5e inherited), and tried to give gnomes a distintive feel that made them different from other races.

I guess that perhaps the people of ZGG had to wait to see the new concepts for these races, and just before that the product line got cancelled.

Interesting perspective. I think that investigating old school playing styles and settings the way they were played originally does have merit.
I also see the merits of this, but that is something I've learned from experience. At the time, however, I was the new to all things D&D and 4e was my entry point. My point of view back then was different from the one I have today.
Boddynock wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:58 am
Have to keep Blackmoor 4e in mind next time I got shopping for RPG stuff. I really liked the material I've seen for Rodhin and am flattered that people wanted to steal some of the stuff I did!
Besides a mention or two, there is nothing about Rodhin in the book. If I'm not wrong, they planned to introduce it in another book, but then the 4e line was killed.

So, besides the stuff I've stole from your blog, all you've seen from Rodhin is mostly from my homebrew stuff. I'm glad that you like it.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by finarvyn » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:02 pm

If you lurk around e-bay you may find a 4E Blackmoor pretty cheap. For a while they were almost giving them away, back when 4E first collapsed and 5E was on the horizon. That's when I picked up my copy.
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:45 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:19 pm
How much did the DA products add to Blackmoor? How much work was put into rebooting Blackmoor to make it fit into Mystara's past?
The DA Modules (DA1-4) probably give the best overview of the Blackmoor setting as envisioned by Dave Arneson. They have the advantage over previous products that they provide much more detail of the setting. Compared to the 3E books, they also leave out all the material that was linked specificially to 3E Classes/Races/Feats/Spells/Rules that can distract from the setting itself.

Each module is introduced with the backstory of how Blackmoor is connected to Mystara and how the characters can be transported from modern day Mystara and back in time to Blackmoor. However, this is really easy to ignore and the modules are fully usable for people who aren't interested in Mystara (everyone should be interested in Mystara!).

The format of these products are adventures, but they are sandboxy enough to make for hours of play outside the storylines detailed in the adventures. This is especially true for DA1, but also the rest of the series.

The only disadvantage to this series is that because they are organized as adventures they can be a bit hard to navigate for someone looking to use them as pure setting books. If you get over that however, they detail almost every aspect of the setting.

The DA modules moved the timeline 30 years after the time of the previous products in the series, placing the events of the golden era of Dave Arneson's campaign in the past. These introduced King Uther as the ruler of an independent Blackmoor, while the FFC presented Blackmoor as an outpost in the Great Kingdom (The Thonian Empire in the DA modules).

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:15 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm
I can only talk from the perspective of 4e. I guess that the only addition of 4e to the setting were the races. Dragonborn, eladrin and tieflings are introduced to the setting and given their Blackmoorian spin. The book removed gnomes and half-orcs from tge playable races rooster, but I guess is because those weren't in 4e's first PHB, and probably they would have been reintroduced later. They also hinted at the existence of the warlock and warlord classes, but this was not expanded. I guess if the product line wouldn't have died, those issues would've been properly addressed in later books.
Thanks for that. It's good to know what I might be dealing with, if I ever saw the 4e book at a cheap enough price.

I would have liked to have seen 4e Blackmoor go further...if only to get beyond the "rebuild the core setting book" stage and onto some stuff that had never been done before.

Both Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax seemed to have been blocked from working on their worlds, back in the TSR days and the 3e and 4e Blackmoor eras were a great time when there was a potential to take an idea from one of the creators of D&D and complete the world.
Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm
As a personal note, I like how they did this organically. Instead of some catasthrope or the like, these races always were there, in some unexplored place (or as a consecuence of the backstory, as is the case of tieflings), but chose not to interact with humans until after 1031. And that was what sold me the setting.
The big world-changing event* route is something I personally find super-frustrating about D&D, so it's so refreshing to see that the 4e Blackmoor book stepped around this approach.

* = My main beef with this is that it makes it a lot harder to mix new material with old material. It's a major reason why I was hesitant to use 4e Forgotten Realms material. As a Spelljammer fan, the post-Spellplague era is so far ahead of the SJA2 era that it feels like you need to make fanon reboots of everything else on the world and in the crystal sphere to "catch up". This 4e Blackmoor change seems a lot easier to handwave. :)

What you said about the 4e races is interesting, because this is Dave Arneson's team adding value to the various playable races in the system they are supporting.

Tieflings have existed since Planescape (2e) and Eldarin are pretty much Celestial Elves (or Half-Celestial Elves) so can be manufactured using 3e templates (even if they didn't directly exist in 3e). So if someone really liked them, they could probably put them into a Blackmoor game before 1031 and give them mysterious origins.

I'm not so sure with Dragonborn, but someone could potentially use rules for lizardmen or some other reptilian race, if they couldn't figure out how to make a Dragonborn with older rules.
Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm
As a player from the "newer guard" I always found the concept of Old School forbidding, like some monolithic, unchangeable thing, that said to us, the new guys, that we were doing things wrong.
I personally find the biggest obstacle to "old school" material is the lack of availability (and high prices of rare stuff). I'm a big fan of Print on Demand, because a new PoD copy of an old book has no special value to collectors.

I don't know what the legal status is with the Judges Guid Blackmoor book, but I'd really love to see them put it out in PoD format (maybe even with a new cover that has colour art).

I'm a no school player myself (although I'm a fan of the 3e rules). I see good things in older and newer products. I've also seen the downside of both people pushing old school stuff and people pushing new school stuff. Remarkably both types of people go around telling people they are "doing it wrong", so they actually have a lot in common with each other. ;)
Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm
Don't want to trashtalk, but I found the Kalamar book that forbidding; every time that book address something from 4e, its to say how wrong that was in their setting.
I probably won't be buying the 4e Kingdoms of Kalamar book. (I am much more likely to buy more 3e KoK stuff.) But perhaps we can both discuss this book some time.

There are a few phrases I use as shorthand as tropes that RPG books seem to fall into. One is the "Hotel California effect" (after a song), where players go somewhere and can never leave. Another is the "Ben Kenobi solution" where something is "true from a certain point of view" (and two conflicting sources can somehow be worked together (with some hand waving).

I've not seen the 4e Kalimar book, but from what you are saying, I'd say this was the "There's no place like home" effect (which comes from Dorothy clicking her heels together in The Wizard of Oz and pretending she is at home instead of on Oz).

For 4e, I would say that Forgotten Realms used the "world changing events" trope, Blackmoor used a "Ben Kenobi solution" and Kingdoms of Kalamar would appear to have done the "There's no place like home" thing and tried to go back to the previous way things were.

I think that each type of approach works better for individual people. FR's way of doing things annoyed some folks (we know because they all told us) but I think that worked well for people who wanted to just pick up the new books and not work for old stuff. I suspect that the KoK approach would have worked best for people who wanted to use ongoing campaigns with 4e rules.

The 4e Blackmoor approach would seem to have straddled those two strategies, potentially having the advantages of both, without the disadvantages of either. However, because the product line was cut short, we probably won't ever know it's potential.
Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm
In Blackmoor (THE Old School setting), I found a book that was inviting me to explore the setting, allowing me to experience the old school with all my toys from the newer game, that weren't wrong at all. That was invigorating back then, in the age of the Edition Wars. That's why I bought the Blackmoor sourcebook instead of the Kalamar one (even if I liked Kalamar's cover art better), even if I didn't got invested into the setting until after I read some stuff in Havard's blog, many years later.
There is no redeeming feature to the 4e Blackmoor cover art. It's as mundane as the CGR books from 2nd Edition. :lol:

I don't think the 4e Kingdoms of Kalamar product went very far. I jumped off of the Edition Treadmill, when 4e came out and I think that 4e settings didn't get as much support as they could have. But if 4e Blackmoor is close to Blackmoor in other editions, I would have imagined that someone could make a conversion wishlist and trawl through earlier Blackmoor books working out which material is best to raid from.
Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:01 pm
I guess that this works backwards. If an old schooler wants to play with one of the new generation races, I guess the 4e sourcebook is a good place to start.
I think we have gone beyond old school vs new school, as there are a lot of spin off systems that mix ideas from new and old rules. Pathfinder stole some ideas from 4e and used them with the 3e SRD. 13th Age seems to have gone in a totally different direction. It's easy for some people to pretend that it's two opposite approaches, but I think it's much more of an X-Y axis. And most of the differences with rules systems comes down to mathematical equations.

Anyhoo, I'm thinking that - if the 4e Blackmoor book is fairly comprehensive, it might also be interesting for fans of systems (old or new) that never had an official Blackmoor conversion.
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:46 pm

Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:38 pm
That's a good presentation of the 4e book. It's interesting for me to hear your thoughts on it. I don't have too much to add. I always wondered if there were some legal limitations that prevented ZGG from adding more classes and races to the 4e book.

The main strength of this book is it's organization. The book manages to include lots of material from several 3e books in that single volume. New interpretations of some 3e BM concepts like classes and PrCs also tells us more about how the designers saw those things. Small New additions are included though the book, like the city of Rodhin.
I think you would need to take a good look at the 4e SRD and the GSL to get an idea about legal limitations on classes and races.

But don't forget there is also the matter of development cycle. With someone like Paizo building Pathfinder RPG using a public playtest, that means that 3rd Party Publishers could gain full access to classes and races (and take a risk on having to rewrite content to fit in with last minute Paizo changes). The 4th Edition Era was a time when WotC turned their back on the Open Game Licence and made it a lot tougher for 3rd Party Publishers to work with their IP.

It might be hard to work out what was left out of 4e Blackmoor because of the "There's no place like home" effect (and Blackmoor designers disliking it), how much was left out because the Blackmoor designers didn't know about it until too late and how much was left out because there was no legal way to include it.

Aside from "cool new mathematics" one other thing that new editions of books bring is the idea to revise things, clarify confusing ideas of condense down information into a single book. It looks like you suggesting that is what the 4e Blackmoor book did. :)
Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:38 pm
Interesting perspective. I think that investigating old school playing styles and settings the way they were played originally does have merit. However, it is also very easy to go from that to dictating how others should run their games, or badwrongfun as Big Mac likes to call it. When it comes to Dave Arneson, he and his group were all about experimenting with the game and the genre. Allowing all kinds of PC races is very much in the spirit of original Blackmoor. :)
I got the "badwrongfun" thing from someone else. I think it was Ashtagon. And I've seen as much of it with people who like new school playing styles as I have seen from people who like old school playing styles. (I stalled with my 3e Spelljammer conversion attempts and one of the things that really got me down, was having 2e fans on one side saying "What's the point? There is nothing wrong with 2e." and Pathfinder and 4e fans on the other side saying "Why don't you give up on that and convert Spelljammer to Pathfinder/4e instead?")

If Blackmoor has managed to stay more consistent over multiple editions, that can only be a good thing, as I think it is going to make it easier for all Blackmoor fans to share content and help each other. :)
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:25 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:15 pm
I'm not so sure with Dragonborn, but someone could potentially use rules for lizardmen or some other reptilian race, if they couldn't figure out how to make a Dragonborn with older rules.
If you ever want to play a dragonborn in 3.x, you can always check the fantastic Races of the Dragon sourcebook. Even if dragonborn became famous in 4e (being elevated to a core race in that edition), they debuted in this book.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:48 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:15 pm
would have liked to have seen 4e Blackmoor go further...if only to get beyond the "rebuild the core setting book" stage and onto some stuff that had never been done before.
Yes, they did have plans for Age of the Wolf.
Both Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax seemed to have been blocked from working on their worlds, back in the TSR days and the 3e and 4e Blackmoor eras were a great time when there was a potential to take an idea from one of the creators of D&D and complete the world.
Well, Gary Gygax had the ability to develop Greyhawk untill 1986.
Dave Arneson was at least allowed to contribute with the DA modules, even though DA4 was published without him being credited or having approved of the module.

But yeah, it is very nice that the agreement with WotC allowed him and his company to give us the 3E and 4E books that we got.
I don't know what the legal status is with the Judges Guid Blackmoor book, but I'd really love to see them put it out in PoD format (maybe even with a new cover that has colour art).
The FFC is owned by the Arneson Estate.
There is no redeeming feature to the 4e Blackmoor cover art. It's as mundane as the CGR books from 2nd Edition. :lol:
The 4E Blackmoor book was published soon after the passing of Dave Arneson. I was told that is the main reason it has a simple, black cover.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:26 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:15 pm
I'm a no school player myself (although I'm a fan of the 3e rules). I see good things in older and newer products. I've also seen the downside of both people pushing old school stuff and people pushing new school stuff. Remarkably both types of people go around telling people they are "doing it wrong", so they actually have a lot in common with each other. ;)
It is easy to see the negative side of people pushing their preferred ruleset or edition, but as you say there are good and bad sides to this. One thing I like about the Old School Movement is that it showcased that the early editions had great ideas that were sometimes forgotten along the way as the focus shifted towards new ideas.

Looking into Dave Arneson's work, I have even discovered ideas Dave and his friends were developing in the early 1970s that never really made it into main stream D&D at all, that are worth bringing back now.

As long as it is done with mutual respect, it is amazing what we can learn from new and old versions of the game.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:30 am

Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:48 pm
The 4E Blackmoor book was published soon after the passing of Dave Arneson. I was told that is the main reason it has a simple, black cover.

-Havard
Wow. This makes sense. And makes me appreciate that book even more. Thanks for sharing this bit of info, Havard.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:11 am

Boddynock wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:58 am
Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the idea that there is this empire threatening the North. I would have preferred the threat of invasion to not be par for the course, and instead be more of a suggested plot thread. So, 3.5 adds heavy invasion and occupation element to the world.
FWIW, this isn't exclusive to the 3.5/d20 era version of the game. As far back as the DA series of modules, this was the setting. DA1 introduced the timeline of the "present" day Blackmoor being post-Afridhi invasion, and DA4 detailed how the Duchy of Ten was currently an occupied nation, and discussed the various factions still attempting to wrest control from the Afridhi invaders therein.
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:06 pm

Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:45 pm
The DA modules moved the timeline 30 years after the time of the previous products in the series, placing the events of the golden era of Dave Arneson's campaign in the past. These introduced King Uther as the ruler of an independent Blackmoor, while the FFC presented Blackmoor as an outpost in the Great Kingdom (The Thonian Empire in the DA modules).
Did Dave Arneson ever explain why he added that time jump?
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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:20 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:11 am
Boddynock wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:58 am
Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the idea that there is this empire threatening the North. I would have preferred the threat of invasion to not be par for the course, and instead be more of a suggested plot thread. So, 3.5 adds heavy invasion and occupation element to the world.
FWIW, this isn't exclusive to the 3.5/d20 era version of the game. As far back as the DA series of modules, this was the setting. DA1 introduced the timeline of the "present" day Blackmoor being post-Afridhi invasion, and DA4 detailed how the Duchy of Ten was currently an occupied nation, and discussed the various factions still attempting to wrest control from the Afridhi invaders therein.
Correct. I always thought this was one of the things Dave had objected to with DA4, but the invasion itself had already been established in DA1.

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Re: What has each edition given Blackmoor?

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:31 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:06 pm
Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:45 pm
The DA modules moved the timeline 30 years after the time of the previous products in the series, placing the events of the golden era of Dave Arneson's campaign in the past. These introduced King Uther as the ruler of an independent Blackmoor, while the FFC presented Blackmoor as an outpost in the Great Kingdom (The Thonian Empire in the DA modules).
Did Dave Arneson ever explain why he added that time jump?
No, but it does make sense. The PCs in Dave Arneson's campaign have now "graduated" and serve as the main NPCs and local rulers of the setting, while a new story can be explored by new generation of players.

Although playing through the original campaign as detailed in the FFC might be a lot of fun too!

-Havard

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