Hollow World Perspective

For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky.
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Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:06 pm

I wondered how the sky and anything else would look like in the Hollow World. It simply was mind-blowing to imagine ships moving up in the sea instead of vanishing behind the ocean. As I wasn´t able to imagine I tried to simulate the view last weekend. This is my second try, after adding a red sun, clouds and flying islands to my first attempt. Probably there are still some mistakes and probably there would also be lots of unknown/unsure parameters I haven´t taken in considerance yet, for example:
  • visibilty range would probably be much shorter due to air pollution or simply fog
  • refraction (which might have an reverse effect)
  • dense clouds in the sky
  • though the sphere I simulate is rather huge I have not yet calculated the exact scale (in comparison to the person and the houses).
    But I believe the general direction of the simulation is correct.
Any suggestions are welcome! Click here to view the simulation: Simulation of the perspective in the Hollow World



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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Sturm » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:47 am

Wow this is wonderful stunning! The most beautiful view of the Hollow World so far! Great work!! How did you do it?
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:20 pm

Sturm wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:47 am
Wow this is wonderful stunning! The most beautiful view of the Hollow World so far! Great work!! How did you do it?
Thanks that´s high praise...

Made a sphere with 3d-software (blender). Also imported a continental map (sorry just from earth, not from the Hollow World) and projected it on the inner side of the sphere. There was some tricky stuff (at least for me as I am a beginner with blender) like inverting normals and putting the projection of the map in the right place (there might still be lots of ways for optimation here).

Afterwards I imported the sphere in the Unreal-Game-Engine (which I am also a beginner with and just started playing around a bit) and scaled it to be really big.
Inserted a small character at the bottom of the sphere and also added some fog and a a sun. Deleted the sun (as the default sun in Unreal is specially created for convex worlds) and simulated another sun by adding more reflexive fog. Also included some other orbs and elevated them as simple models for the flying islands. Took me some time to experiment with render-material to get some acceptable clouds (there are several tutorials out there but I decided to go by trial-and-error. All in all it took me about half a weekend.

The rest is credited to the Unreal-Engine, which is quite fun to play with.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Havard » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:25 pm

Love it! :)

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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Sturm » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:59 am

Well much better I could ever do :-) I knew blender and the unreal engine but I've never manage the will to work with them. I think it gives a pretty good idea of how the Hollow World may look, as it may be difficult to imagine such a particular place.. great work indeed, thanks!
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:25 pm

Havard wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:25 pm
Love it! :)

-Havard

Thanks!
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:00 pm

Wauw..awesome, Great Work.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:31 am

Robin wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:00 pm
Wauw..awesome, Great Work.
Thanks Robin! To tell the truth I have spend some hours looking through all your work at Deviantart!
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:58 am

aklanda wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:31 am
Robin wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:00 pm
Wauw..awesome, Great Work.
Thanks Robin! To tell the truth I have spend some hours looking through all your work at Deviantart!
Hours?
Great Thanx...You are always welcome to comment, give input or ideas, suggestions or whatever here in my 1-mile hex topic... this discusses the development in the map and background details. And I welcome any input greatly...as it inspires me.
I know how to draw, and map using windows paint combining it with all my knowledge of Ecology Biology, Geomorphology etc and my weird mind continuously thinking in 4D on what I create,
Yet what you made...is what I see...and that is something awfully good. respect.
I wish I could do this (on my old PC probably not) then I would create images of the Canolbarth and Ethengar which won't leave my concsious mind.
Continue your great work
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:21 am

Robin wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:58 am
(on my old PC probably not)
Well, at least a map of 10.009 x 6720 pixel or some 39MB seems to have place in the memory of your PC ... :)

It´s a beautiful map! Though unfortunatly I will not be able to contribute much as I am no expert on the elves of Alfheim.

The only "problem" with these pixelmaps is, as I see it, that your PC has to handle lots of data.
I tried myself to put together some of the bigger maps to get an area map of the known world. The corresponding GIMP-file exceeded 90MB (I couldn´t bring myself to give up the more detailed maps and kept them in layers).

Using a tool like hexographer might rapidly reduze data-sizes but the maps would definitly loose a lot of their beautifulness. Of course one might also change the amount of detail or the hex-size. I am still working on this topic (actually the "Hollow World Perspective" was just a test how I would get along with the Unreal engine), but I doubt I will produce meaningful results soon.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:00 am

aklanda wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:21 am
Robin wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:58 am
(on my old PC probably not)
Well, at least a map of 10.009 x 6720 pixel or some 39MB seems to have place in the memory of your PC ... :)

It´s a beautiful map! Though unfortunatly I will not be able to contribute much as I am no expert on the elves of Alfheim.

The only "problem" with these pixelmaps is, as I see it, that your PC has to handle lots of data.
And that's about all working then...Normally I Have Youtube as musik on the background and all sources material too, yet the bigger and more detailed, the more difficulty with saving. The Great Canolbarth map for example, I could not even past together, someone else on another MUCH bigger and faster pc had to do this...as my pc simple wasn't able.
That is the reason I kept Broken Lands and now huge Ethengar in parts.
And indeed a lots of data, even saving only the map needs about quadruple the amount of working memory (and sometimes way waaaaay more) than the map itself has of comprimised data. Luckily I have a friend/nerd/geek/PC dude who can help me with this. Without him, many maps could have not been combined.

As to you...maybe an idea, what about the Hollow World view from an island like Ashmorian looking over the edge or while slowly follow its trajectory.
If you use the Iceria HW map then, the sight must be truly beholding.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:47 pm

Robin wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:58 am
(on my old PC probably not)
As to you...maybe an idea, what about the Hollow World view from an island like Ashmorian looking over the edge or while slowly follow its trajectory.
If you use the Iceria HW map then, the sight must be truly beholding.
Sounds interesting.

Putting the character on the edge of one of the flying islands is probably no problem. Though there might occure some problems with the sun and lightning as they are only simulated right now.

But projecting the map of Iceria correctly on the Inside of a sphere is a job I will not be capable of, as this would include some understanding on how to do such projections mathematical correctly in the Unreal Engine (In the simulation you saw I just projected a map of the earth on the inside of the sphere for to get an understanding about how the perspective would look like in the hollow world).

How to make trajectories is another thing I would still have to learn...
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:19 pm

Interesting indeed.
Here are some links which you might find useful if you desire to attempt.
https://i0.wp.com/www.thorfmaps.com/wp- ... 500%2C1250

https://i1.wp.com/www.thorfmaps.com/wp- ... nder-3.png

http://www.thorfmaps.com/wp-content/upl ... r-9-sm.jpg

https://mystara.thorfmaps.com/wp-conten ... 24x300.jpg

http://www.thorfmaps.com/wp-content/upl ... d-tiny.png

viewtopic.php?t=9196

And a trajectory can be a stationary line alone the inner sphere or a wavy one like
http://pandius.com/Hollow_World_Floating_Continents.png
Actually these seeming waves are also stationary, yet the sphere and line projection follows the sphere and if the sphere is placed on a 2 dimensional surface is warped.
Eitherway. continue the great work
I and many many others would enjoy this

There is also some movie (i don't know the title (or is it a series?) where the heroes travers in the hollow earth...maybe you could find out how they did this.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:07 pm

Robin wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:19 pm

viewtopic.php?t=9196
Thanks for all the maps and yes, this software "PlanetGen" looks interesting, especially as it has some extra features like climate calculation.

I had already downloaded NASAs GProjector (https://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/gprojector/),
which has a wider variation of input-formats, but alas, both programms seem to miss the import-function for a 2D-map in Mollweide-projection.

I read Thorfinns updated Article about lining up Mystara and one main statement seems to be, that all existing official maps (and thus all maps based on them) are assumed to be Mollweide projections.

I could of course ignore this and just import the given maps of the Hollow World into my simulation and probably you would still recognize Iciria. I might still do so for to improve compability. But there are also other issues I would also have to solve to get a perfect simulation and at the moment they just don´t seem solveable:

1. When I created the simulation I didn´t care too much about scales. Though the view itself didn´t seem to change much when I changed the radius of the sphere (=Hollow World), the proportions of the person you see in the simulation and the Hollow World are most probably wrong as I simply didn´t look them up or calculated them or implemented them.

2. It could be difficult to set the proportions right as the software I use (Unreal Engine) has probably a minimum height for the person for to be able to simulate/render it. On the other side I can´t exceed the radius of the sphere too much as the Unreal engine simple hides Objects which are too far away from the viewer. I didn´t press it, but I assume this might become a problem when heading in this direction.

3. Even more problematic is the sun. The Unreal Engine provides a perfect sun - for konvex worlds! This means it comes complete with the well known horizont, behind which this perfect sun sinks at the end of the day. I had to trick the engine to simulate a "kind of sun", but unfortunatly I wasn´t able to place a high-energetic light-source at the center of the sphere as I would have prefered to do (actually I am simulating the sun by it´s reflection in a high fog). But thus the sun will become less sun and less centered if the viever would gain in height (like standing on the top of a flying island).

4. The trajectory for some flying islands could be implemented, but this exceeds my intention and is probably also above my opportunities.

5. There are also many other variables which might change the actuall view in the Hollow World: Visibility range might be much lower so you won´t be able to look far enough to spot landmasses far away. The sun might be too bright to be able to look up ...

The main idea was to get an impression how the horizont and what the sea might look like in a concav world as I simple wasn´t able to image this. Unfortunatly I doubt that I will be able to extend this simulation to a much broader extent. I will try to make the easy changes (including the Hollow World map even with the wrong projection) in the coming days. Everything else is probably beyond my scope yet. But who knows, my knowledge of the Unreal Engine might develop with the time...
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:02 pm

Whatever You do with this...keep us informed...This is and stays awesome
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:55 pm

Me again,


played around a bit, but still have lots of problems with light and sun and projection...

By the way: does anyone know about a geographic world-map of the hollow-world without hex-grids and longitudes and Settlements and region-names? Tried to find one (with google and at the well known places) but couldn´t.

With hexes and names it looks quite funny:

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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Chimpman » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:01 am

aklanda wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:55 pm
By the way: does anyone know about a geographic world-map of the hollow-world without hex-grids and longitudes and Settlements and region-names? Tried to find one (with google and at the well known places) but couldn´t.
I'm late to the game here, but this is great!

If you want a map without hexes or grid lines you can use this:
http://pandius.com/m_hwldnh.html
The thumbnail has grid lines, but if you download the pdf you can remove them (they are set up as a layer).
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:29 pm

You know you get old...

... when somebody tells you that pdf-files have layers and you never heard about it :)

Thanks for pointing me to that map!
As stated I have never heard about that pdf has layers, but it´s never too late to learn some new stuff.

There a two problems with using this map for the perspective:

1. Seems like not only had I never heard about layers but also my pdf-programm has never heard about them. I can´t hide the grids. Do you happen to know whether acrobat reader (the free version) allows this, or what software do you use?

2. The map itself is wonderfull but unfortunatly it is not showing hills, forrest areas or mountains. Thus even if I could hide the grid it would not give an nice impression of the world spine etc.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Chimpman » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:49 pm

Heh... Thorf is the one who had to tell me about that so... ;)
aklanda wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:29 pm
1. Seems like not only had I never heard about layers but also my pdf-programm has never heard about them. I can´t hide the grids. Do you happen to know whether acrobat reader (the free version) allows this, or what software do you use?
I'm pretty sure it is the standard free reader. I'm using "Adobe Acrobat XI version 11.0.10"
In the left hand panel there should be a series of icons, one of which is two flat planes on top of each other. Those are the layers.
aklanda wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:29 pm
2. The map itself is wonderfull but unfortunatly it is not showing hills, forrest areas or mountains. Thus even if I could hide the grid it would not give an nice impression of the world spine etc.
This one is tougher. There are layers for rivers and such, but nothing else is filled out. I can add/remove the grid, but all other layers (except coastlines) are empty.

It is possible that Thorf has an updated version. <summon Thorf>

If not we could convert that coastline pdf to a png file and just add the other features (rivers, mountains, hills, forests, etc) in broad strokes. Might take some time but doable.

EDIT:
Argentmantle was working on some Outer World/Savage Coast maps (the style of which might be a lot better for this project). He may be interested in helping out if asked?
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21539
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=22178
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:33 pm

Hy Chimpman,

thanks for the hints. As you might have already guessed by my postponed answer I am not in the situation that I can promise to spend lots of time on a specific project. Thus I would rather not ask people to join in as I can´t foresee if I can hold my part of the bargain.

But though I am getting old, there might be some years left. So I will keep an eye on this project and maybe one time there will be a solution to this small problem. I still love to play and to learn with the Unreal Engine and (as the name says) it seems to be made for to let become some fantastic worlds alive...
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Argentmantle » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:38 pm

I started a project of just tracing the coastlines of the Hollow World. Considering the sheer scale, the process confounds me a bit. The map I did of the Savage Coast, which stretches a couple thousand miles is dwarf by this one, stretching over 10k miles.

I'll see if I can create a shareable version (that is usable) of it. Even with vectors its still a monster.

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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:04 pm

Hy Argentmantle,


thanks, that sounds great, but please do only invest the time if you fell you want to do this anyway. As I stated before, I am rather occupied at the moment and can´t even think of when to produce or even "deliver" any results! Thanks anyways!
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:21 pm

I revised an existing map of the Hollow World to get a more authentic view in the simualtion (that is without hexes and with the real geography of the hollow world). This time the viewer stands near a pole. At the end you can see the "world spine" roughly at the height of the characters head as the view turns around.

Of course this view would only be possible, if there woulnd´t be any clouds etc:

Enjoy: https://youtu.be/hYD0OiRrK3o


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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Chimpman » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:44 am

Oh I really like that. It definitely conveys the alienness of the red sun and looking up at a world without a horizon. Well done!
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:25 pm

Thanks Chimpman. I also realized severall other things:
  • I would go as far as to say the red sun really irritates when you look at it for some time. And you also loose contrast as everything is red in red. Might cause some penalties for newcomers for range-weapons... . Races that stayed there might have adopted in some ways.
  • Shadows are funny with a sun at full height all the time.
  • When you stand at the southern pole the "world spine" looks too far away. Actually it looks like it is above the equator. This is probably because the distances above the equator are smaller due to the perspective than distances near the spectator.
  • Tried to put in Alphatia. It´s ok when you stand far away and the flying continent is far away, but it´s really funny when it is above you. And it´s HUGE.
  • The question is still: How far can you really look? Is the blending sun limiting your view or is there also lots of pollution in the air, causing some kind of "blue" sky that is hiding the objects behind it?
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