[GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

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[GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:39 pm

This thread is for discussing the influences the Immortals have had on populations, be that on beliefs, culture, interactions, or movements. These influences will be integral to the 'story' of Mystara's history as presented in the GazH continuum as well as in exploring how cultures develop and change over periods of time.

Another aspect to this work is to explore the possible role the Immortals have had in the specific culture and languages found on Mystara. For example, is there an Immortal or group of Immortals that (perhaps through their personality) are responsible for the Greek-like, or Spanish-like, or Viking-like elements found in some Mystaran cultures.

To begin with, I'm listing those Immortals that were in existence prior to 5000 BC and giving the main populations they were influential in. I'm also giving a brief note on this influence. This is all in very basic terms for now but should develop as the picture becomes clearer.

Hel: mainly Neathar > Antalians, cold Giants. Outweigh influence of Law.
Ixion: nearly everyone, as light, life, and order. ‘Knowledge’ as salvation, peace at all costs, worship. Does not like strict codes or laws. Balance
Korotiku: non-evil arachnids, Tanagoro (spreading greatly later). Inducing thought and unpredictability. Reconsider values of society.
Odin: Neathar > Antalians. Use wits and intelligence, seek knowledge and wisdom through experience. Wise leaders.
Protius: Sea-races (Manwara to the merrow). Disinterest in fights for power. Be aware that he is the uncontested lord of the waters.
Skuld: Neathar > Antalians. Little influence as luck and cryptic oracle.
Thanatos: Bringer of death
Tyche: Mainly Neathar and Oltec. Bringer of luck.
Valerias: Widespread. Fertility and love. Intercedes more on individual rather than national levels.
Zugzul: Giants, Afridhi, Nithia. Metallurgy and weapon crafting, fire rituals. Strives to increase influence over mortals.
Pax: ??. Revered as good and light. Disappeared in XI century BC.
Thalia: ??. Often revered as a couple (with Pax) promoting harmony, arts, and beauty.
Verthandi: Vanished, time frame unknown.
Urd: Vanished, time frame unknown.
Arik: Davania, Beholders. Imprisoned.
Demogorgon: Lizardkin, Oltecs. Corruption, necromancy, disease.
Faunus: Satyrs, Oltecs?. Protection of woodland creatures and herds.
Fugit: ? eventually in Yavdlom (via elves?). Ensuring natural flow of Time.
Gorrziok: Sea & Storm Giants, Merrow. Devasting aspect of the ocean, natural phenomena.
The Great One: Ignores human races.
Ka: Lizardmen, Stone Giants, Tortles.
Kagyar: Brutemen, Neanderthal, Dwarves. Mining, crafts, art.
Luca: No interaction.
N’grath: No interaction.
Ninfangle: Rakasta, Nithians. Everything can be achieved.
Ordana: Elves, Treants, Humans(?). Dainrouw (Way of the Forest).
Qywattz: No interaction.
Simurgh: Urduk (Neathar?) Source of protection.
Ssu-Ma: Pachydermions, Alphatians,
Stodos: Humanoids, Cryon, Frost giants. Spread cold energy.
Terra: Neanderthal, Neathar, Oltecs(?). Protection, fertility, nature/earth, shepherds and farmers.
Zalaj: Cloud, Mountain, other giants, Dwarves. Jealous protection.
Nyx: Tanagoro, Oltec, limited Neathar(?). Establishing and promoting the presence of undead.

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:16 pm

This is great Hugin! I'll weigh in right away with my thoughts on early dwarven patrons (this has been discussed quite a bit in the Shimmering Lands thread).

After talking extensively with Giulio, and looking at some of LoZopmatore's maps, I am now convinced that there were at least two major populations of dwarves on Mystara, pre-GRoF. One would have been on Brun (living in very cold and harsh conditions), and the other was pretty well scattered across Blackmoorian lands (it looks like there were several different kingdoms of dwarves in the various mountain ranges of the time).

It's likely (given their proximity to the Antalians) that the ancestors of the Kogolor were the Brunian dwarves. We know that they were moved into the HW shortly after the GRoF, and that they worship Nordic immortals (Frey and Freya primarily). The problem is that the Codex lists the ascension of these immortals far after the Kogolor were moved to the HW. It has been speculated that one answer to this is that the worship of Frey and Freya came after their move to the HW, but for this to be possible the dwarves would have already had to be worshiping others in the pantheon. It's a stretch IMO, but it can still work. So Kogolor dwarves should worship immortals like Hel and Odin. Notice that Kagyar (despite having moved them to the HW) is absent from their pantheon.

Now there are other dwarves living on Skothar, near or among the Blackmoorians, and their pantheons are probably entirely different. Kagyar may have been worshiped by dwarves here (especially since dwarven culture in Blackmoor is presented as very close to that of modern day Rockhome - and very differently from that of the Kogolor). I think that as Blackmoor rises in power and influence, that these dwarves may have begun to adopt their pantheon as well.
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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:13 pm

Chimpman wrote:This is great Hugin!
Thanks!
After talking extensively with Giulio, and looking at some of LoZopmatore's maps, I am now convinced that there were at least two major populations of dwarves on Mystara, pre-GRoF. One would have been on Brun (living in very cold and harsh conditions), and the other was pretty well scattered across Blackmoorian lands (it looks like there were several different kingdoms of dwarves in the various mountain ranges of the time).
Indeed. I guess it could be viewed as a contrast between those dwarves interacting and being influenced by the growing human culture of Blackmoor, and those remaining more insulated farther to the north (the 'purer' Kogolor culture). Apart of this difference will likely be the result of following some different Immortals and/or having different significances to them.
It's likely (given their proximity to the Antalians) that the ancestors of the Kogolor were the Brunian dwarves. We know that they were moved into the HW shortly after the GRoF, and that they worship Nordic immortals (Frey and Freya primarily). The problem is that the Codex lists the ascension of these immortals far after the Kogolor were moved to the HW. It has been speculated that one answer to this is that the worship of Frey and Freya came after their move to the HW, but for this to be possible the dwarves would have already had to be worshiping others in the pantheon. It's a stretch IMO, but it can still work. So Kogolor dwarves should worship immortals like Hel and Odin. Notice that Kagyar (despite having moved them to the HW) is absent from their pantheon.
When you look at the big picture you can see that what you say is very likely. It seems more than plausible to me that Kagyar is at least a fringe member of the Northmen pantheon. He was born a Neanderthal and became one of their patron Immortals. I'm sure he would have had some hand in the forming of the three groups of modern man, and since the Neathar group basically became the Neanderthal substitutes, I can imagine he'd have more interest in them compared the the others (although in the Codex he is not listed among any of the three groups and that doesn't sit right with me).

Another angle is that of the Northmen(Antalian)/Dwarf connection. That is, in our RW dwarves are very associated with Norse mythology, and this close relationship has been carried into Mystara. It makes sense that if Kaygar came from the Neanderthal, was revered by them (along with Odin according to the Codex), was likely involved in the alteration that transformed the Neanderthal into modern man, created the dwarven race, and given the geographic closeness of all of this, that he was involved in the Neathar tribes from which came the Antalian (Northmen) culture.

This will be one of those cases where we deviate from the Codex, but at least it is by adding something and not actually contradicting it.
Now there are other dwarves living on Skothar, near or among the Blackmoorians, and their pantheons are probably entirely different. Kagyar may have been worshiped by dwarves here (especially since dwarven culture in Blackmoor is presented as very close to that of modern day Rockhome - and very differently from that of the Kogolor). I think that as Blackmoor rises in power and influence, that these dwarves may have begun to adopt their pantheon as well.
I just realized you're saying the same thing I just said above. That's a good thing I think. ;)
The only thing I'd add is that I don't necessarily see the dwarves of Blackmoor forsaking Kagyar so much as diminishing his prominence as they adopt the Blackmoor pantheon and are influenced by them.

But that does open the question, was there dwarves left unchanged by Kagyar on Skothar.

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:42 pm

Hugin wrote:
Chimpman wrote:This is great Hugin!
Now there are other dwarves living on Skothar, near or among the Blackmoorians, and their pantheons are probably entirely different. Kagyar may have been worshiped by dwarves here (especially since dwarven culture in Blackmoor is presented as very close to that of modern day Rockhome - and very differently from that of the Kogolor). I think that as Blackmoor rises in power and influence, that these dwarves may have begun to adopt their pantheon as well.
I just realized you're saying the same thing I just said above. That's a good thing I think. ;)
The only thing I'd add is that I don't necessarily see the dwarves of Blackmoor forsaking Kagyar so much as diminishing his prominence as they adopt the Blackmoor pantheon and are influenced by them.
Yup, I think so to. You're right, I don't see the Skotharian dwarves ever abandoning Kagyar, but I do see them relegating him to a somewhat minor role in their pantheon - especially as they struggle to cope with the radiance poisoning after the GRoF. Kagyar sticks around however, and those dwarves who remain steady adherents to his philosophies are eventually rewarded by being made resistant to the dreaded wasting disease afflicting their race (BC 1800).

It's my theory that even though the Kogolor didn't revere Kagyar, he still saw some amount of goodness in them, and so moved them to the HW for their own protection. Because they weren't his followers, he had no right to modify their race... but the Northern immortals did allow him to save the Kogolor culture.
Hugin wrote:But that does open the question, was there dwarves left unchanged by Kagyar on Skothar.
A much bigger question, and one that probably deviates a bit from this topic. My preference would be that "unmodified" dwarves left on the outer world become the mordrigswerg - but this is not strictly canon. Actually strictly canon (according to Gaz 6) says there are no dwarves outside of Rockhome by BC 1800, and all those were modified. We'll have to decide what to do for GazH in this regard.
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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:15 pm

You just made me see an error in my understanding about Kagyar; I thought he created the original dwarven race as well as newly modified one and should therefore be patron to both, but it doesn't seem to be the case at all. Then I thought, well it doesn't exactly say who created them in the first place and it could have been Kagyar, but I'm seriously doubting that now.

Both the HW book and Rockhome Gaz give the picture that Kagyar was not interested in the original dwarven race until he crafted them into a race that would embody his values. He carefully molded his new race, garnered aid from other Immortals to reshape their underground homeland, and even gave them a protector, in contrast to the original dwarves which he "unceremoniously dumped" into the Hollow World. This all seems to go against the Codex's notion that he created the ancient dwarves.

The HW book also gives insight into Kagyar's purposes in influencing mortals: the promotion and protection of the arts. Thus, I think he has influence in each of the three modern human groups as a driving force behind their cultural arts. He is not concerned with what they create, mainly that they create.

Furthermore, looking at the Rockhome dwarves culture gives us insight into Kagyar's personality, and these are likely to be the kind of elements found in other cultures in which he has had significant influence; i.e. his fingerprint. It is these types of 'fingerprints' that I'd like to discover for all the Immortals.

As for the Mordrigswerg, I'm not entirely sure. There is a possibility that Kagyar overlooked some of the dwarves that moved into the Northern Reaches c. 2500 BC. These dwarves may even have had contact with Mogreth...

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:36 pm

Hugin wrote:Both the HW book and Rockhome Gaz give the picture that Kagyar was not interested in the original dwarven race until he crafted them into a race that would embody his values. He carefully molded his new race, garnered aid from other Immortals to reshape their underground homeland, and even gave them a protector, in contrast to the original dwarves which he "unceremoniously dumped" into the Hollow World. This all seems to go against the Codex's notion that he created the ancient dwarves.
Ahhh... I guess I'll have to go back and read Kagyar's entry. I wasn't aware that it portrayed him as the creator of the original dwarves (which I agree is unlikely).
Hugin wrote:Furthermore, looking at the Rockhome dwarves culture gives us insight into Kagyar's personality, and these are likely to be the kind of elements found in other cultures in which he has had significant influence; i.e. his fingerprint. It is these types of 'fingerprints' that I'd like to discover for all the Immortals.
:D Yes, this really intrigues me as well. I totally agree with your assessment of Kagyar's "fingerprints".
Hugin wrote:As for the Mordrigswerg, I'm not entirely sure. There is a possibility that Kagyar overlooked some of the dwarves that moved into the Northern Reaches c. 2500 BC. These dwarves may even have had contact with Mogreth...
;) My work on the Shimmering Lands would tend to agree with this statement... in fact I'd go a step further and say that Kagyar didn't overlook some dwarves, he actively excluded them. We know that the present day modrigswerg worship dark entities (said worship taught to them by the "Dark Elves" of Gaz 7). If such worship was around pre BC 1800 (and I think it was) this would give Kagyar a good excuse to leave unmodified dwarves around. In fact it's less of an excuse and more like a big red Don't Touch sign. I mean how can Kagyar justify modifying mortals who actively worship other immortals (and may even consider Kagyar an enemy)! If I was one of those other immortals there would be trouble. Combine that with the fact that modrigswerg are often sickly (both in body and mind), and it's a pretty good case for them being unmodified.

PS - I'm not even sure how Kagyar managed to pull of his modification of the dwarves at any level - seems like a pretty blatant disregard for the Prime Directive. Regardless he did it somehow, but to say that he did it for all dwarves stretches the boundary of believability for me.
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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:07 am

Chimpman wrote: I mean how can Kagyar justify modifying mortals who actively worship other immortals (and may even consider Kagyar an enemy)! If I was one of those other immortals there would be trouble. Combine that with the fact that modrigswerg are often sickly (both in body and mind), and it's a pretty good case for them being unmodified.
Ah, very good point! The original dwarves don't seem to have an Immortal patron, and any that did involve themselves with that race must have agreed/aided in their transporting to the Hollow World. The Modrigswerg being influenced by other Immortals could very well have been a case for Kagyar saying, "I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole".
PS - I'm not even sure how Kagyar managed to pull of his modification of the dwarves at any level - seems like a pretty blatant disregard for the Prime Directive. Regardless he did it somehow, but to say that he did it for all dwarves stretches the boundary of believability for me.
Again, it is for the same reason that Immortals place any other race into the HW, except in this case took some of them and modified them (similar to what was done with the humans). The key is to having the vested Immortals in agreement.

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Havard » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:09 pm

Hugin wrote:
Hel: mainly Neathar > Antalians, cold Giants. Outweigh influence of Law.
IMC, she is also the patroness of Chaotic Dragons at the time. Possibly she is the same entity as Idris.

Ixion: nearly everyone, as light, life, and order. ‘Knowledge’ as salvation, peace at all costs, worship. Does not like strict codes or laws. Balance
Oltecs follow Ixion as Otzantiotl as per HWA1.
Korotiku: non-evil arachnids, Tanagoro (spreading greatly later). Inducing thought and unpredictability. Reconsider values of society.
He probably fills the trickster niche in many societies.
Odin: Neathar > Antalians. Use wits and intelligence, seek knowledge and wisdom through experience. Wise leaders.
IMC also the patron of Gold Dragons at the time. He is also going to end up as the main patron of Blackmoor, so he might have started out early on Skothar.

Zugzul: Giants, Afridhi, Nithia. Metallurgy and weapon crafting, fire rituals. Strives to increase influence over mortals.
Ah yes. Zugzul will have the loyalty of the Afridhi. It is possible that he is otherwise unknown on Skothar though, at least in the North.

Demogorgon: Lizardkin, Oltecs. Corruption, necromancy, disease.
Demogorgon will be major on Davania at the time, among the Lizardfolk there especially.

Faunus: Satyrs, Oltecs?. Protection of woodland creatures and herds.
Its awesome that Faunus is this old. He is likely the patron of many sylvan creatures in this period. IMC, Oberon is a mortal identity of Faunus.
Gorrziok: Sea & Storm Giants, Merrow. Devasting aspect of the ocean, natural phenomena.
Its possible that the Skandaharians pay their respect towards him.
The Great One: Ignores human races.
If you use the Blackmoor deiteis, he might be the same as Insellageth and be worshipped among Blackmoorians as such.
Ka: Lizardmen, Stone Giants, Tortles.
It would be strange if Ka doesnt have other followers as well. Oltecs perhaps?

Stodos: Humanoids, Cryon, Frost giants. Spread cold energy.
Most likely the patron of the Frog Cult near Blackmoor...

Terra: Neanderthal, Neathar, Oltecs(?). Protection, fertility, nature/earth, shepherds and farmers.
[/quote]

Perhaps also a patron of Dwarves? According to 3E Blackmoor, Blackmoorian elves also worship her


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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by JohnBiles » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:07 am

Havard wrote:
Hugin wrote:
Hel: mainly Neathar > Antalians, cold Giants. Outweigh influence of Law.
IMC, she is also the patroness of Chaotic Dragons at the time. Possibly she is the same entity as Idris.
Wasn't Idris originally an elf?

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by JohnBiles » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:08 am

Chimpman wrote: PS - I'm not even sure how Kagyar managed to pull of his modification of the dwarves at any level - seems like a pretty blatant disregard for the Prime Directive. Regardless he did it somehow, but to say that he did it for all dwarves stretches the boundary of believability for me.
He probably convinced the council in charge of that that there was a severe risk of the dwarves dying out entirely if not modified.

Or possibly he enabled them somehow to modify themselves.

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:29 am

JohnBiles wrote:Wasn't Idris originally an elf?
Not sure, but that may have been from GazF Wendar.

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:28 am

It was- the only canonical information on Idris comes from X11: Saga of the Shadowlord, which makes no mention of what (if any) race Idris might have been prior to becoming Immortal (it doesn't even technically refer to Idris as an Immortal). In the module, Idris is most closely identified with the image of a black dragon, which is a statue representing her/him/it in one of the temples dedicated to her/him/it.
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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Gawain_VIII » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:10 am

I seem to think of Idris as being an elf as well, but that may be a faulty association due to mis-remembering the character of "Idris Darkelf" in AC1 Shady Dragon Inn.

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:58 pm

JohnBiles wrote:
Chimpman wrote: PS - I'm not even sure how Kagyar managed to pull of his modification of the dwarves at any level - seems like a pretty blatant disregard for the Prime Directive. Regardless he did it somehow, but to say that he did it for all dwarves stretches the boundary of believability for me.
He probably convinced the council in charge of that that there was a severe risk of the dwarves dying out entirely if not modified.

Or possibly he enabled them somehow to modify themselves.
With other parts of the project going so well, I thought I'd have a look into this facet of the project and realized that there is a huge factor on all this transporting to the Hollow World, manipulation and modifications: The Council of the Hollow World.

This Council consists of Ka, Ordana, Ixion, Korotiku, and Hel. I believe these Immortals in particular should be looked at when we deal with topics of this nature. Let's take the dwarves for example (and commence the wild speculations! :D ):
Kagyar wishes to take all dwarves and use them as a base model for his ideal race. However, the Council must be consulted.
Ka, readily agrees with Kagyar, but insists that preservation is needed of the original form in the Hollow World.
Ordana, backs Ka in his insistence for preservation thinking it a shame to entirely rob these beings of what little enjoyment of woodlands they have.
Ixion, a little spiteful of the dwarves lack of acceptance of his messages and resistance to following him and so is indifferent, accepting Ka's judgment.
Korotiku, desires that the dwarves are given a chance to adapt to the world after the GRoF, and to alter their own society and cultural beliefs.
Hel, agreed with Korotiku that they must be given a chance to rise or fall of their own accord, citing that they are not in eminent danger of extinction.

It appears as though the Immortal responsible for the creation of this race has ceased to exist or has forsaken them and so the Council has no need to enter discussions with any other faction.

Thus, the Council decides that Kagyar is permitted to use some dwarves as his base for the creation of a new race of dwarves with the caveat that some must preserved in the Hollow World and others left untouched on the surface to find their own fate. To help ensure that these new dwarves would not 'taint' the older ones should they meet, the Council advised on a memory alteration that would give reason to remain isolated from one another. The irony of course is that the older dwarves became a taint unto themselves, much to the chagrin of Korotiku and pleasure of Hel (who wouldn't have had anything to do with it :twisted: ).

Just some thoughts I ran with as an example of "The Immortal Connection". ;)

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Chimpman » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:45 pm

Hugin wrote:With other parts of the project going so well, I thought I'd have a look into this facet of the project and realized that there is a huge factor on all this transporting to the Hollow World, manipulation and modifications: The Council of the Hollow World.
I agree 100%. The council is going to have authority over any races/civilizations that are moved into the HW.
Hugin wrote:This Council consists of Ka, Ordana, Ixion, Korotiku, and Hel. I believe these Immortals in particular should be looked at when we deal with topics of this nature. Let's take the dwarves for example (and commence the wild speculations! :D ):
Kagyar wishes to take all dwarves and use them as a base model for his ideal race. However, the Council must be consulted.
...
You know, I pretty much agree that things would go down like this. There is a potential problem with what you say about Hel and Korotiku however, which I will address below.
Hugin wrote:It appears as though the Immortal responsible for the creation of this race has ceased to exist or has forsaken them and so the Council has no need to enter discussions with any other faction.
Not so sure here... but it all depends. It depends on what sources we want to include in GazH (which we've talked about before). Since dwarves are included in Blackmoor, it could be reasonable to assume that any immortals worshiped by the dwarves during Blackmoorian times would continue to be worshiped after the GRoF. This is very interesting, and something I'd love to explore. I'm not currently aware of any specific mention of dwarven gods in say the DA series, but it might be worth our while just to give these a look over. If there are references to immortals other than Kagyar, then this could be enough evidence to dispute the Gaz 6 claim that all outer world dwarves were modified. That's something I'd love to see, but not something I'm holding my breath about.

Hugin wrote:Thus, the Council decides that Kagyar is permitted to use some dwarves as his base for the creation of a new race of dwarves with the caveat that some must preserved in the Hollow World and others left untouched on the surface to find their own fate. To help ensure that these new dwarves would not 'taint' the older ones should they meet, the Council advised on a memory alteration that would give reason to remain isolated from one another. The irony of course is that the older dwarves became a taint unto themselves, much to the chagrin of Korotiku and pleasure of Hel (who wouldn't have had anything to do with it :twisted: ).
I agree that this makes perfect sense. Unfortunately Gaz6 disputes this, and says in pretty strict terms that all dwarves on the surface after the BC 1800 modification event were located in Rockhome, and were modified. This includes even the dwarves who would later become the mordrigswerg.

Gaz7 does present some circumstantial evidence that might suggest the mordrigswerg were unmodified - they are crazy, have deformities, etc... everything you might expect from an unmodified dwarf. But it really doesn't say anything that directly contradicts Gaz 6.

EDIT: And by the way, this is where my Shimmering Lands material deviates from canon... so if we stick with canon, and I want to make the Shimmering Lands compatible with GazH, I'm going to have to revisit this issue in that work.
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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:56 am

Chimpman wrote:Not so sure here... but it all depends. It depends on what sources we want to include in GazH (which we've talked about before). Since dwarves are included in Blackmoor, it could be reasonable to assume that any immortals worshiped by the dwarves during Blackmoorian times would continue to be worshiped after the GRoF. This is very interesting, and something I'd love to explore. I'm not currently aware of any specific mention of dwarven gods in say the DA series, but it might be worth our while just to give these a look over. If there are references to immortals other than Kagyar, then this could be enough evidence to dispute the Gaz 6 claim that all outer world dwarves were modified. That's something I'd love to see, but not something I'm holding my breath about.
Oh, I'm not sure either! :D I was just running with some ideas as an example of what the possibilities may be like when we keep in mind the influences of the Immortals. In this case I was assuming no Dwarven Immortals simply because I'm not aware of any. I'm also in favour of considering the DA series as part of Mystaran canon so if there are insights in there I'd gladly use them. And as a side note, weren't there references to some Immortals that were possibly killed in the GRoF? If so, the Dwarven patron may have been one. But enough speculation, we should look for info.
I agree that this makes perfect sense. Unfortunately Gaz6 disputes this, and says in pretty strict terms that all dwarves on the surface after the BC 1800 modification event were located in Rockhome, and were modified. This includes even the dwarves who would later become the mordrigswerg.
Could be, but we are dealing with conflicting statements here to some degree. Gaz 6 says Kagyar took the "Blackmoor-era dwarf race" and that it was "these pre-historic dwarves" that he altered the memories of and modified. Gaz 7 gives extra info about the mordrigswerg that were unknown up to that point (and as you mentioned, it's full of hints connecting them to a Blackmoor era lifestyle). Then the HW book gave additional info that happened but was not told yet - the placing of half of these dwarves into the HW.

We'll have to decide if "Blackmoor-era dwarf race" means all Mystaran dwarves or if it means a specific race of dwarves and that it was all these dwarves that were taken. :?:
EDIT: And by the way, this is where my Shimmering Lands material deviates from canon... so if we stick with canon, and I want to make the Shimmering Lands compatible with GazH, I'm going to have to revisit this issue in that work.
Just to clarify, the Shimmering Lands material has the mordrigswerg as unmodified?

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:22 pm

Hugin wrote:
I agree that this makes perfect sense. Unfortunately Gaz6 disputes this, and says in pretty strict terms that all dwarves on the surface after the BC 1800 modification event were located in Rockhome, and were modified. This includes even the dwarves who would later become the mordrigswerg.
Could be, but we are dealing with conflicting statements here to some degree. Gaz 6 says Kagyar took the "Blackmoor-era dwarf race" and that it was "these pre-historic dwarves" that he altered the memories of and modified. Gaz 7 gives extra info about the mordrigswerg that were unknown up to that point (and as you mentioned, it's full of hints connecting them to a Blackmoor era lifestyle). Then the HW book gave additional info that happened but was not told yet - the placing of half of these dwarves into the HW.

We'll have to decide if "Blackmoor-era dwarf race" means all Mystaran dwarves or if it means a specific race of dwarves and that it was all these dwarves that were taken. :?:
Good point. Like I said, I'm all for having there be unmodified dwarves on the surface after BC 1800. We just need to find enough info to support it.
EDIT: And by the way, this is where my Shimmering Lands material deviates from canon... so if we stick with canon, and I want to make the Shimmering Lands compatible with GazH, I'm going to have to revisit this issue in that work.
Just to clarify, the Shimmering Lands material has the mordrigswerg as unmodified?[/quote]
Well, since the Shimmering Lands deals with dwarves in BC 2300, they are all unmodified. However it has always been my intent that in BC 1800 the dwarves enter into a civil war which if fought by Kagyar worshipers on one side, and Blackmoor technologists on the other. The winners (Kagyar worshipers) get modified, and the losers eventually become the mordrigswerg. I like the idea... I'm just not sure I can support it with canon.

Here's a thought, given that we know the radiance poisoning was dissipating in BC 1800, why would Kagyar even bother to modify the dwarven race? Was it purely foresight (since only 100 years later there was the LRoF)? Or was it because he knew that nearby there were dwarves who embraced Blackmoorian technology, and he couldn't take direct action against them? In that case he opted for a good defense, and modified his own followers to be resistant to the radiance.

Anyway, like I said, I'd love to be able to make a solid case for this. Just not sure that I can.
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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:33 pm

I have created a thread in the Mystara forum to continue this discussion: The Mordrigswerg.

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Re: [GazH] The Immortal Connection (working thread)

Post by Hugin » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:29 pm

Just an update on what I've been working on lately. I'm looking at the lineage line of people in conjunction with the development of languages, Immortal worship and followings, and their geographic locations. It's leading to same interesting connections and possibilities which I will start commenting on soon. (I also think we need to tie up those GazH threads in the Mystara forum).

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