Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

[Chimpman]

Maps

Map of Mogreth, 8 miles per hex by John Calvin, August 2009 (Work In Progress)


Map of Mogreth, CC3 by John Calvin, August 2010 (Work In Progress)


Map of Mogreth (Mystaran Map Colors), CC3 by John Calvin, August 2010 (Work In Progress)


Comments
This map of Mogreth in 2300 BC covers areas of current day (1000 AC) Ylaruam, portions of the Northern Reaches, Thyatis, and the Isle of Dawn, as well as lands that sunk beneath the sea in 1700 BC.


Sources:

Unofficial Maps: Taymor at the Vaults of Pandius, Physical Map of Southeastern Brun (c. BC 2000) (2002) by Geoff Gander, Map of Taymora (2003) by James Mishler, Map of Southeastern Brun: 2500 BC (2003) by James Mishler, Geopolitical map of Taymora (2004) by Giampaolo Agosta, Taymora BC 2300 by John Calvin, Taymora BC 2300 with cities by John Calvin.

Notes on XXX

To Do List

1. Continue to name all major geographical features.

References

1. Outer World: Taymora 2300 BC, 24 miles per hex
2. Mogreth

Thanks to: Thorfinn Tait, for providing some wonderful graphics to use in all of our mapping projects, and Geoff Gander for developing Mogreth. Thanks to Hugin, happylarry, and Ashtagon for providing input in developing this map.

[Chimpman]

Moved from Mogreth thread:

John's work on the Nephthisians has made me realise that it would be useful to plot out where Mogreth's major cities would be located, in relation to the modern nations. Here's an educated guess.

Based on this unscientific analysis, there's a good chance Ssugath once stood where Tameronikas is today (as Chimpman wondered), and that Teshos might have survived the devastation of the flood. Ussur, being on the edge of a river, and near what is now the escarpment, is probably littered across a good portion of the southern Ylari basin now.

Here is an overlay of the city placement on the 24mph map with the city placements at 8mph specified in your above map.

Isshum, Theliir, and Teshos are spot on. It looks like Ithkesh and Ussur may be off by a hex (either on the original map or the new map). Ssugath I've placed directly over the modern position of Tameronikas. That one is way off from your original positioning in the 24mph map.

Frankly I like the idea that Ssugath = Tameronikas, but we'll have to make some changes to the map if we want it to be so. I suppose that the swamp could be extended all the way to the hills. What do you think Geoff?

[Chimpman]

On the subject of cities, it looks like the current placement for Theliir puts it 16 miles (2 8mh) north of Tel Akbir. What do you think of moving it down so that the cities are overlapping?

Also the Theliir peninsula is going to need to be redrawn. I'm double checking my KW 2300 BC map with Thorf's TM1-TM2 map and the coastlines on my version are slightly off. I'll try and fix those and get some updates out shortly.

[Seer of Yhog]

Whoa - John, you've outdone yourself - thank you! *bows*

...and to think I was sweating bullets about trying to work in another map into my increasingly busy schedule!

I agree with you on Theliir - let's move it down to overlap with Tel Akbir. Never let reality or geography get in the way of a good storyline,. I always say.

On Ssugath, let's extend a narrow bay inland to the town, but not all the way. The rest of the territory can be swamp. I think, when Ssugath was founded, the bay extended all the way to the port, but as time passed it silted over, and now hundreds of slaves toil year-round to dredge a navigable channel to the usually empty stone piers.

[Hugin]

I agree with you on Theliir - let's move it down to overlap with Tel Akbir. Never let reality or geography get in the way of a good storyline,. I always say.

On Ssugath, let's extend a narrow bay inland to the town, but not all the way. The rest of the territory can be swamp. I think, when Ssugath was founded, the bay extended all the way to the port, but as time passed it silted over, and now hundreds of slaves toil year-round to dredge a navigable channel to the usually empty stone piers.

I got to agree on both accounts; have Tel Akbir built on top of Theliir (happened a lot in ancient times; new buildings built on the remains of the old), and have a bay to Ssugath that silted over (also happened in ancient times and had to be combated through dredging).

Would Theliir have grown in importance as a port city as Ssugath's port became unusable? Would there have been a trade route from Theliir linking to Ssugth? What would be Theliir's fate?

[Chimpman]

Thanks guys!

...and to think I was sweating bullets about trying to work in another map into my increasingly busy schedule!

I figured I'd throw a template out there that we can play with, although if you look closely you'll see that the 8mph map is really just a direct translation of the 24mph map at this point.

My real goal was to get to Taymora and start to flesh that out. The bad news is that I noticed some problems last night when I started mapping out the "Frontier Lands" and it looks like I'm going to need to go back and correct some problems in the 24mph BC 2300 map. The good news is that it looks like those problems are confined to the southern coast of Brun, so the work on the Shimmering Lands and Mogreth so far aren't affected.

I agree with you on Theliir - let's move it down to overlap with Tel Akbir. Never let reality or geography get in the way of a good storyline,. I always say.

On Ssugath, let's extend a narrow bay inland to the town, but not all the way. The rest of the territory can be swamp. I think, when Ssugath was founded, the bay extended all the way to the port, but as time passed it silted over, and now hundreds of slaves toil year-round to dredge a navigable channel to the usually empty stone piers.

Ok, Theliir - check. I'll move it down to overlap with Tel Akbir.

Ssugath I'll keep overlapping with Tameronikas and go in and add the silted over bay. Love that idea, by the way.

Would Theliir have grown in importance as a port city as Ssugath's port became unusable? Would there have been a trade route from Theliir linking to Ssugth? What would be Theliir's fate?

I love the idea of slaves dredging out a silted over bay in Ssugath, so the city would still probably do some amount of sea trade. I think you are right about a trade road to Theliir as well though. I'll put in a trail for now so we can see how it looks.
[Note: Theliir is on the outskirts of Mogreth, and it's probably that anything coming in through Theliir but bound for elsewhere in Mogreth, would have to pass through Ssugath. So there may be trails leading out from Ssugath as well. Possibly to Ussur? After that the Lizards would probably transport goods by barge (on the Issus). Hmmm... what kind of pack animal would they use to pull those barges upstream?]

As for Theliir - and this is just my impression of things - I'd say that although it's in a great location (for both trade and defense), it's probably not built in the lizard's number one preferred habitat (which would seem to be something more swampy). You may be right that Theliir's rise is linked with Ssugath's fall. I like that ideas as well.

[Seer of Yhog]

I figured I'd throw a template out there that we can play with, although if you look closely you'll see that the 8mph map is really just a direct translation of the 24mph map at this point.

Works for me - I can modify this pretty quick-like.

[Note: Theliir is on the outskirts of Mogreth, and it's probably that anything coming in through Theliir but bound for elsewhere in Mogreth, would have to pass through Ssugath. So there may be trails leading out from Ssugath as well. Possibly to Ussur? After that the Lizards would probably transport goods by barge (on the Issus). Hmmm... what kind of pack animal would they use to pull those barges upstream?]

Mogreth would have proper roads linking the major settlements (all maintained by slaves, of course) - great causeways rising up out of the swampy delta. Less work would be required to maintain the roads further inland, though. Once you get off the beaten path, it's basically trails all the way. So, Ssugath should be a hub - you would have to pass through it to get to Ussur. Actually, the through-traffic is probably what keeps Ssugath from declining even further.

As for Theliir - and this is just my impression of things - I'd say that although it's in a great location (for both trade and defense), it's probably not built in the lizard's number one preferred habitat (which would seem to be something more swampy). You may be right that Theliir's rise is linked with Ssugath's fall. I like that ideas as well.

Agreed. Theliir was probably founded as a military outpost (due to hostilities with Taymor and local tribes), but probably grew into a self-sufficient town, and finally Mogreth's second city (in size and prosperity) due to two factors: Ssugath's decline, and the rise of trade with the south. Many human traders quite understandably don't want to go to Isshum, and Theliir provides an opportunity to do business in Mogreth without having to actually go too far into the country. So they dropped anchor there more often, and as trade grew more lizard men and trogs went south. This actually served the sorcerer kings' interests quite well, as Theliir became a strong military centre on what was then Mogreth's weakest flank. However, the main reason why the Anointed of Theliir is not #3 in the hierarchy has to do with the city's image - it's still seen as a settlement on the edge of unsuitable barbarian lands, and no amount of trade wealth will change that. A house in a nice neighbourhood will be more appealing than a mansion next to some railroad tracks.

[Chimpman]

Ok, same drill here. I've uploaded a brand new png image of this map. I changed the hill areas to make them look more natural, added some roads, and a small bay just to the north of Ssugath.

Another something interesting that the terrain might suggest - it looked like the road to Teshos might be crowding the mountains a little bit so I drew it so it crosses over the river in two places. This might suggest the existence of two bridges in those areas. What do you think Geoff?

[Chimpman]

I've just uploaded an update of this map - with borders added. It was looking a little sparse so I added in some mines, shipwrecks, and a few whales. I also put several Keeps and Fortresses in what I think might be key strategic locations. Let me know what you think.

A few questions for Geoff (in an attempt to fill in some more labels):
What is the name of the swamp?
What is the name of the bay in the swamp?
What are the names of the northern and southern mountain ranges?

[Seer of Yhog]

The map looks great! I'll answer your questions:

What is the name of the swamp?

Well, mog was the Carnifex word for swamp (hreth-mog – land of the swamp, later becoming the lizard man mog-hreth, then Mogreth), so the common name for the region would probably be something like Rumog (Our Swamp), but there would likely be a formal name given to it by the Carnifex (who never met anything they didn’t want to name after themselves). That might take time to craft, though.

What is the name of the bay in the swamp?

So far the name I’ve come up with is the relatively unimaginative Bay of Isshum. Obviously it would benefit from having a name with a bit more flavour, so “Bay of Isshum” could be the name used by foreigners. More than likely, the lizard men would use the name devised by the Carnifex, ages ago – Rurak (from rh’rhak – Our Water), or the Sea of Rurak.

What are the names of the northern and southern mountain ranges?

Given the likely attitudes of the lizard men towards their mammalian neighbours, the ranges probably would have defensive names – Northern Wall and Southern Wall. But that would be boring. I’ve sat down and developed a name using my Carnifex vocabulary (modified slightly to account for slight dialect change over the millennia):

Kuuromaresha (Protective Mountains) - south
Kuuromdaresh (Cold Mountains) - south

[Chimpman]

Thanks Geoff! I just realized that your Carnifex Language was out on the Vaults!

I'll see about adding some of those labels tonight after work.

[Chimpman]

Ok, here is my attempt at creating some Mogreth-sounding names for the keeps and fortresses on the mainland. Let me know what you think.

Salathat - (from the ancient Sal Yathat meaning many small columns) This series of short, yet thick, towers is set in northeastern Mogreth, along the border of the Shimmering Lands. The towers (five in all) reach up out of the ground as if they were the broken and blackened fingers of some giant buried hand.

Azhadok - (from the ancient Azhat Dohkh meaning the 'old fortress') This ancient and crumbling fortress lies along the southern face of the Kuuromdaresh mountains. The rumors among the minimal force of soldiers stationed there is that there are more dangers lurking within the ancient citadel than there are outside of it.

Tammur Zek - (from the ancient Rostamma Urzhek meaning 'sword in the forest') Situated between Theliir and the Kuuromaresha mountains, this tall pointed tower gleams in the light like a highly polished sword. Tammur Zek is a major staging area for raids against the humans to the south and west.

EDIT: Updated the image.

[Seer of Yhog]

Those all sound great to me, and they're excellent ideas, too! I'll think of something for the other locations on the map. In the meantime, could you add a village at the junction of the roads from Ssugath, Ussur, and Isshum? Also, I think a tower would be good at the major crossing of the River Issus (this would be a large guard post where travellers, especially foreigners, are checked for contraband and escaped slaves).

[Hugin]

Nice work on the names guys!

[Chimpman]

Those all sound great to me, and they're excellent ideas, too! I'll think of something for the other locations on the map. In the meantime, could you add a village at the junction of the roads from Ssugath, Ussur, and Isshum? Also, I think a tower would be good at the major crossing of the River Issus (this would be a large guard post where travellers, especially foreigners, are checked for contraband and escaped slaves).

For the village, do you want that right on the river or on one of the hexes to the east? I'll probably end up redrawing that junction to get it right.

For the tower I'm assuming it should go on the north bank.

Here are some other questions - copied over from the Mogreth thread:

Bringing stuff over from Piazza v. 2...the regional map of Isshum.

Based on this drawing I may want to revise the map slightly - taking into account that the main body of the river Issus should be flowing through Isshum, I'm going to redraw the waterways in the swamp so that the main river winds around to the north (top) of the bay. Then I'll have the tributaries coming off of that and spreading out through the rest of the swamp.

Also, based on the positioning of Isshum I'm assuming that on the image of the city you drew, north would be to the left of the page. Is this correct?

Ithkarum (pop. 6,000) does double duty as a supplementary port. Veteran foreign traders prefer docking here because the fees are lower (and the officials are easier to bribe), and the locals tend to be more open-minded (they won't alert the authorities if slaves are quietly loaded without any export papers). Some of the locals also worship the Immortals. Foreign spies may operate safe houses here.

Aressh (pop. 1,500) is basically a glorified stockyard for slaves. Rows of barracks, each housing about 200 slaves awaiting final sale. Overall, a very miserable place to visit, but the place does boast a few inns for travellers from the north.

Kethesh (pop. 3,500) sees the most travellers, as the town is basically a giant crossroads. Here visitors may find inns, gambling dens, arenas, drug lounges, and other things to tempt any fancy. Some travellers to Isshum stop here and forget to continue their journey, as the freewheeling spirit of the town keeps them from moving on. Some high-caste dissidents hold parties here.

I'm assuming here that all three of these villages would be too close to Isshum to be seen on this map.

[Chimpman]

Nice work on the names guys!

It's all based on Geoff's Carnifex language doc. It's really quite impressive how much work he's put into this over the years!

Anyway, there are more things to name :
3 sets of hills in between the inverted 'S' of the Issus River.
The keep SW of Ussur
3 fortresses on the Isle of Dawn
The island E of Isshum
3 or 4 major forested regions within Mogreth's borders
The river offshoot that merges into the Issus above Teshos
The retreating bay of Ssugath
Any of the roads or trails
Territories of the Isle of Dawn (Hreth Az'uss or Azureth?)

I'm giving Geoff the ultimate stamp of approval on everything that goes into this map (names and labels included), but I'm sure he won't mind others throwing out ideas. I may try to come up with names to some of the above features at some point (unless someone else beats me to it).

[Seer of Yhog]

For the tower I'm assuming it should go on the north bank.

Yeah - that would be best.

Based on this drawing I may want to revise the map slightly - taking into account that the main body of the river Issus should be flowing through Isshum, I'm going to redraw the waterways in the swamp so that the main river winds around to the north (top) of the bay. Then I'll have the tributaries coming off of that and spreading out through the rest of the swamp.

I'd meant to bring that up, as I just noticed it the other day while preparing to do my own serious thinking about the map. And yep, on the big city map north is at the top. Based on my imagined scale for that map, it should cover about 2 8-mile hexes (top to bottom), so that would mean the other three villages would be too close to be placed separately on the map of Mogreth. For all intents and purposes, they should be considered part of "Greater Isshum".

EDIT - thinking about it some more. I seem to recall thinking that the stone piers of Isshum were quite long (about one-quarter to one half a mile each). This would mean the city itself (the part inside the wall) would cover roughly one 8-mile hex. So this would mean that the other villages would literally sit in the neighbouring hexes - so yes, too close to put on the map.

This also means that Isshum was [expletive deleted] huge.

[Seer of Yhog]

It's all based on Geoff's Carnifex language doc. It's really quite impressive how much work he's put into this over the years!

Thanks! I've actually picked it up several times over the years as a reference tool for other work, so it definitely has its uses. What it's screaming for more than anything else right now is more vocabulary - especially common nouns and verbs. I've actually devised a few new words in order to answer your last round of questions. It was always much more advanced (grammatically) than my Lhomarrian dictionary, as I had designed the Carnifex Dictionary to construct actual phrases.

I'll see what I can come up with to answer your latest questions!

[Chimpman]

Updated. I added the village and bridge tower. Check their locations and see if that's where you want them. Also changed Azhadok into a ruin, just to play around. Let me know if you like it better this way or as a fortress.

[happylarry]

Fantastic to see this map taking shape - really tempted to run a campaign sometime in this time frame with humans as the minority race (those humans on the river valley to the norht of Teshos look really interesting - are they organised or just hunter-gatherer types?)

Anyway - just one question - should Kuuromaresha and Kuuromdaresh be 'mounts' or just left as they are given that mountains is part of the name? (hope this isn't too pedantic a point)

And just to say again - fantastic maps!!

[Chimpman]

Fantastic to see this map taking shape - really tempted to run a campaign sometime in this time frame with humans as the minority race (those humans on the river valley to the norht of Teshos look really interesting - are they organised or just hunter-gatherer types?)

Thanks HL! I'm pretty sure we've talked about the humans in one of the other threads - either the Mogreth thread or the Mystara 2300 BC thread (and possibly in both). I'd have to go scan through them again to find the actual posts. Regardless I don't think Geoff ever detailed them in depth (at least not here), but perhaps he has more info on them.

Anyway - just one question - should Kuuromaresha and Kuuromdaresh be 'mounts' or just left as they are given that mountains is part of the name? (hope this isn't too pedantic a point)

Not too pedantic at all, as it was something I was thinking myself! The purist in me agrees with you. Mounts is part of the name so it should be left out of the label. On the other hand I figured that not all of the "humans" using the map would be fluent in ancient carnifex, and in the end (in my own mind's little discussion) that argument won out.

I could be persuaded either way though. What do you think?

[Ashtagon]

Anyway - just one question - should Kuuromaresha and Kuuromdaresh be 'mounts' or just left as they are given that mountains is part of the name? (hope this isn't too pedantic a point)

Not too pedantic at all, as it was something I was thinking myself! The purist in me agrees with you. Mounts is part of the name so it should be left out of the label. On the other hand I figured that not all of the "humans" using the map would be fluent in ancient carnifex, and in the end (in my own mind's little discussion) that argument won out.

I could be persuaded either way though. What do you think?

I say keep them all. Even if eventually you get something that translates as mount hill mountain high place.

[Seer of Yhog]

Agree with Ash - keep them. Besides, the Sea of Rurak is a bit redundant in that sense, too (an equivalent would be some English fellow calling the Mediterranean the Marenostrum Sea - which works in terms of flow and all that, but...) I think it's a nice reflection of the oddities of language - no matter what a place might be called, someone else will always want to customise it.

[Chimpman]

Sounds good to me.

[Seer of Yhog]

I'm pretty sure we've talked about the humans in one of the other threads - either the Mogreth thread or the Mystara 2300 BC thread (and possibly in both). I'd have to go scan through them again to find the actual posts. Regardless I don't think Geoff ever detailed them in depth (at least not here), but perhaps he has more info on them.

I never really wrote that much about them, but the humans living there are a mix of Thonian and Oltec. The Thonians came from colonies on Brun that were wiped out during the GRoF - the people trekked south to lands that were beginning to warm up. Once there, they met with local Oltec tribes (distantly related to the Inti), and a new people was created. Then Mogreth expanded into the region and began to stomp on them.

Politically, the humans are organised into city-states, which in turn are grouped into defensive alliances. They aren't completely united, which is one reason why Mogreth was able to overrun them so quickly. Most of the prominent ones have already been conquered (like Gathol, which we should put on the map as ruins - I'll show you where, John), but those that remain have managed to overcome many of their differences in the interest of survival. Some city-states are mostly Oltec in look and feel, others might be more classically Thonian, and one or two may have adopted some practices/customs of their neighbours/enemies - these would be shunned by the others, though, and probably considered to be little more than vassals of Mogreth.

The great flood that destroys Mogreth will wipe out many of these city-states, too. Some refugees, however, probably fled to higher ground, or to the west and/or south, where they would have been eventually absorbed.