Thanks. I've edited my post, to try to avoid further confusion.ripvanwormer wrote:It says the "civilization of Blackmoor," not the City of Blackmoor. The distinction is important. The City of Blackmoor was sacked by the Egg of Coot in the 540s CY, only about thirty or forty years ago from the perspective of SJR1.Big Mac wrote:No date, but Havard might be able to help*: A tradesman called The Happy Gauntlet launches from the City of Blackmoor, its captain completing many voyages before stumbling into an illithid ambush. The entire crew, except for the captain's wife, Sharanger Szeltune, are destroyed by the mind flayer's mental powers. She is mortally wounded but is able to unleash powerful spells that allow her to take the helm and retreat. She then retreats to a safe world, lands her ship in a hidden location and transforms herself into an archlich. <"I must Go Up to the Stars Again" p 7-8 SJR1 Lost Ships>
I figured that was a way to allow a GM to drop a lot of facts from Greyhawk's past into Sharanger's backstory and use them as plot hooks. I also figures that she might know something about the deserted cities on Kule, Charnelhouse (in the Grinder), Gnibile (before its inhabitants were killed), the earlier history of Ginsel, Borka (when it was an intact world) and other things that might improve the history of the sphere.ripvanwormer wrote:Now, the module makes it clear that they're talking about something much more ancient: "Her knowledge of space and the worlds to be found in it are so dated as to be almost useless (though she knows where places of power are to be found in Greyhawk, which are now lost and overgrown ruins)."
I don't see any reason why a civilisation could not rise and fall several times over the centuries. Perhaps there is some sort of period in the past, that might be a logical peak for Blackmoor. All it really needs is a sea port or two.ripvanwormer wrote:I don't think the modern Archbarony of Blackmoor ever had much of a "civilization." It's a backwater, cut off from other lands by the Relentless Horde in 320 CY.
It doesn't really tie things down for Paul, does it. Like a lot of SJ stuff, it is half facts.ripvanwormer wrote:It's possible that Sharanger hails from the Archbarony of Blackmoor prior to 320 CY, when it was easier to travel to the lands of the south and the Archbarony was somewhat less of a backwater. That'd place her at 250+ years old; I think the (vague) notes in the adventure imply a significantly greater gulf of time, though.
I didn't notice this quote in your other thread. Do you need more info before you add it?ripvanwormer wrote:See, then, my post on Oerth's Blackmoor, where I collected direct quotes from a variety of sources on the ancient civilization in what is now the Archbarony of Blackmoor. This earlier Blackmoor, a technological civilization, existed during the latter years of the Suel and Baklunish empires, declaring independence during those kingdoms' final wars and finally being destroyed by a plague of "Gear Madness." This civilization had contact with the Fraternity of Order, who were founded about 982 years ago.
Note that there wasn't a "City of Blackmoor" in those days. The "City of the Gods" seemed to have been the capital of that land, though it probably wasn't named that, then.
Anyway, the City of the Gods civilization was probably at its height around 1000 years ago, during the Baklunish-Suloise Wars, just before the gear madness hit.
I wonder if there would be any more arch-liches in the ruins of the City of the Gods.
We know that the elves fought to keep the Netherese out of wildspace. Perhaps the Blackmoorian spacefarers were more acceptable. Have you got start and end years for the City of the Gods?ripvanwormer wrote:The Netherese spelljammed during the Age of Discovery, between -1205 and -1064 DR, or roughly 2400 to 2500 years ago. The City of the Gods civilization in Blackmoor was more like 1000 years ago.Big Mac wrote:(I wonder how this compares with the Netherese spacefaring dates, and if it will show which of the two spheres was the first to convert from a groundling sphere to a spacefaring sphere.)
There are regions outside of the Flanaess that might have had spacefarers too. Perhaps the Kara-Tur civilisation could be lined up with a Greyhawk oriental civilisation, so that the early Oriental Adventures stories can be made to apply to both worlds.ripvanwormer wrote:That doesn't mean there weren't spelljammers from Oerth before then, of course. The Suel civilization is about 6000 years old, and the Doomgrinder civilization is about 8000 years old (and I definitely think they ought to have had spelljammers). But in general, civilization on Toril seems to be older, and the earliest mention of spelljamming on Toril long predates the earliest canonical spelljammers from Oerth.