What is known about Laterre?

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What is known about Laterre?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:59 am

I'm reading Mystara: The Known World AGE pdf and noticed that Klantyrian and Averoignian human folk come from another world known as Laterre.

What cannon and fannon has been established for Laterre?

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Morfie » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:12 am

Averoigne is from the Clark Ashton Smith stories. I'm not sure about Klantyre off-hand but GAZ3 states the people come from the same world.
Averoigne is the French equivalent while Klantyre is Scottish.

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by NPCDave » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:35 am

Laterre is basically Earth but with magic. During the 2E era it was suggested(as best I can recall) that the 2E historical campaign books could be used to flesh out Laterre for different periods.

And if you combine that with the Immortals campaign adventure modules, then thanks to IM3 there is also a non-magical version of Earth along with the magical version.

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:39 am

Morfie wrote:Averoigne is from the Clark Ashton Smith stories.
Stories as in novels?

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Marco Fossati » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:40 am

The Vault of Pandius hosts some files about Laterre

http://pandius.com/planejam.html

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Boneguard » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:37 pm

Twin Agate Dragons wrote:
Morfie wrote:Averoigne is from the Clark Ashton Smith stories.
Stories as in novels?
Yes. Well a serie of short stories really. Similar to his Hyperboria Cycle and his Zothique cycle.
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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Havard » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:31 pm

Most of Clark Ashton Smith's literary work can be accessed here: http://www.eldritchdark.com/

In this thread, Mike identified the following CAS short stories as related to Mystara:
CAS Novels Related to Mystara

The Black Abbot of Puthuum (Clark Ashton Smith) - Obvious inspiration of the Monastery in X4 (read online)
The Beastof Averoigne (Clark Ashton Smith) - Appears in X2 (read online)
The Colosses of Ylourgne (Clark Ashton Smith) - Appears in X2 (read online)
The Enchantress of Sylaire (Clark Ashton Smith) - Chateau Sylaire appears in X2 (and also in Glantri?). This short story is the obvious source, and could serve to flesh out that locale. (read online)
The Holiness of Azedarac - Azedarac is an NPC in X2 (read online)
A Rendezvous in Averoigne - more background for X2 (read online)
The Tomb-Spawn - is this inspiration for the shrine guardian in X4? (read online)

The best Mystara books to read up on Laterre are:
  • X2 Castle Amber
  • Gaz 3 The Prinipalities of Glantri
  • Wrath of the Immortals (Renames Laterre "The Dimension of Myth")
  • Glantri: Kingdom of Magic
  • Mark of Amber
LaTerre is a planet closely resembling our historical earth, but with magic. Large groups of travellers have moved between LaTerre and Mystara during the centuries. Most known groups seem to have settled in Glantri although fan material has included groups settling elsewhere as well. X2 and Gaz3 suggest that LaTerre is a fairly dark place where magic-users are persecuted. Wrath of the Immortals paints a (perhaps) somewhat different picture focusing on mythological creatures living in the lands associated with their myths (ie Satyrs and Dryads found in Greece). The dark atmosphere in the early sources as well as some creatures presented in those books have lead to speculations that Laterre is closer to the Dimension of Nightmares and perhaps influenced by powers from that realm.

Three groups are the best known LaTerran colonists on are
  • Averoignians, most prominent of which are the Ambreville family (from Laterre's "France")
  • Klantrians (From Laterre's "Scotland")
  • Anglaise (From Laterre's "England")
Gaz7: The Northern Reaches describes a place the norsemen call Midgard, which may very well be LaTerre's version of Scandinavia. If so, that book should also be considered a sourcebook for that setting. If so there has likely been widespread contact between LaTerre and the Northern Reaches. Perhaps even Mystara's Odin (Wotan) originates from LaTerre.

Fan material:
  • A discussion about Laterre in the Blackmoor era may be found here.
  • A fan theory I am partial to is one where the Klantrians originally settled on the Isle of Dawn and then later migrated to Glantri. Not sure if that appears in the Caerdania Fan Gazetteer or not? (Edit - No, it does not.)
  • The Anglaise appear in the Fan Gazetteer Gaz F5 The Western Alliance
  • Fan speculation that the Wizard Pickman of the Thunder Rift Setting could be a refugee from the Salem Witch Burnings.
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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:51 pm

Havard wrote:Fan material:
  • A fan theory I am partial to is one where the Klantrians originally settled on the Isle of Dawn and then later migrated to Glantri. Not sure if that appears in the Caerdania Fan Gazetteer or not?
No, my incomplete Caerdania Fan Gazetteer doesn't support this theory - quite the contrary, as I'm opposed to it! :P ^_^

In the Fan GAZ's history (the only section that's actually complete) I had the Caerdans related to other ethnic and linguistic groups which settled on the Isle of Dawn (Dunaels, peoples of Redstone, and so on). Apart from personal taste, I think it's quite simpler to have the Caerdans as Mystara-native as canonwise they happen to be next to other Gaelic-inspired peoples of the IoD.

Besides, remember that the McGregors (Klantyreans) used the same gate as the d'Ambrevilles to come to Mystara, and they made it crash - so they supposedly landed in Glantri as well as Etienne's family. ;)
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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Chimpman » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:53 pm

Havard wrote:
  • The Anglaise appear in the Fan Gazetteer Gaz F5 The Western Alliance
Is there any canon material that relates the Anglaise to Fenswick?
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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Havard » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:42 pm

Chimpman wrote:
Havard wrote:
  • The Anglaise appear in the Fan Gazetteer Gaz F5 The Western Alliance
Is there any canon material that relates the Anglaise to Fenswick?
That original quote should have read "The Anglaise also appear in the Fan Gazetteer F5..."
I belive this is mainly connected to Dolores Hilsbury, the alter ego of Synn. I would assume that the connection is spelled out in either the Almanacs or in Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, but I may be misremembering?

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:53 pm

Havard wrote:I belive this is mainly connected to Dolores Hilsbury, the alter ego of Synn. I would assume that the connection is spelled out in either the Almanacs or in Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, but I may be misremembering?
It's in Mark of Amber. I don't think they appeared anywhere prior to that.
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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:04 pm

NPCDave wrote:Laterre is basically Earth but with magic. During the 2E era it was suggested(as best I can recall) that the 2E historical campaign books could be used to flesh out Laterre for different periods.
It was also supposedly the same world as the Masque of the Red Death campaign.

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:58 pm

Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone. Brought a smile to my face reading all this info. Looks like I have a bit of research to do as well as adding some novels and products to add to my amazon wishlist!

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Havard » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:41 pm

Just uploaded to the Vaults of Pandius, an old article by James Mishler on the Dimension of Myth: http://pandius.com/mythdimn.html

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:31 am

Havard wrote:Just uploaded to the Vaults of Pandius, an old article by James Mishler on the Dimension of Myth: http://pandius.com/mythdimn.html

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Interesting read for sure. Thanks for sharing Hav.

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Thorf » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:39 pm

Havard wrote:Just uploaded to the Vaults of Pandius, an old article by James Mishler on the Dimension of Myth: http://pandius.com/mythdimn.html
I read that today. I don't really like the direction James took it in. It seems a bit at odds with the impression I got from the few official mentions.

Specifically, I really dislike the treatment of Immortals, making them gods and even having multiples of each god. It seems to me that there's no real reason for the Immortals to be separate just in that dimension, and even less reason to muddy up the already slightly controversial gods vs Immortals thing. Even though it's a different dimension, it's still part of Mystara (the setting).

Incidentally, I don't think they changed Laterre to Dimension of Myth - rather Laterre is the name of a single prime plane world in the Dimension of Myth.

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Havard » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:59 pm

Thorf wrote:
Havard wrote:Just uploaded to the Vaults of Pandius, an old article by James Mishler on the Dimension of Myth: http://pandius.com/mythdimn.html
I read that today. I don't really like the direction James took it in. It seems a bit at odds with the impression I got from the few official mentions.
I tend to agree, but I think part of the problem is that WotI doesn't really mesh with the older sources.
Specifically, I really dislike the treatment of Immortals, making them gods and even having multiples of each god. It seems to me that there's no real reason for the Immortals to be separate just in that dimension, and even less reason to muddy up the already slightly controversial gods vs Immortals thing. Even though it's a different dimension, it's still part of Mystara (the setting).
I agree about this, especially as long as we don't take the AD&D Multiverse into account. I think you are right about keeping that a separate issue and deal with Mystara and LaTerre first since they are part of the same setting. What I do like about James' article is the idea that some Immortals may originate from Laterre/Myth.
Incidentally, I don't think they changed Laterre to Dimension of Myth - rather Laterre is the name of a single prime plane world in the Dimension of Myth.
Yeah, I guess that would be more accurate. Do you see the "Pegasi-in-Greece" plane as a separate Prime Plane from LaTerre though?

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Culture20 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:20 pm

Havard wrote:Do you see the "Pegasi-in-Greece" plane as a separate Prime Plane from LaTerre though?
This is what confused me. I always considered LaTerre / Dimension of Myth to be one world with clearly defined areas where certain populations of "Earth-myth" creatures existed, which also happened to coincide physically with the locations where the myths arose on Earth. That would allow for Klantyre et al to be the same world. The "Party of Twenty Thors" would be an impossibility with such a makeup, but that sounds like a gain to me rather than a loss. At best you might get two Thors (one is Odin's blood son from LaTerre, the other is a mortal that Odin sponsored to Immortality on Mystara).

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Thorf » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:51 pm

Havard wrote:I tend to agree, but I think part of the problem is that WotI doesn't really mesh with the older sources.
I think it depends on how much you read into it. If you take things more at face value, without extrapolating too much, I don't think the fit is too bad. (Not counting world-destroying events, of course.)
I agree about this, especially as long as we don't take the AD&D Multiverse into account. I think you are right about keeping that a separate issue and deal with Mystara and LaTerre first since they are part of the same setting. What I do like about James' article is the idea that some Immortals may originate from Laterre/Myth.
That's what is so great about you, Havard - you can always find something positive to comment on. :cool:

I agree completely - in fact since we already have one anyway (Rad), I had always assumed so - especially with the more myth-related Immortals such as Odin. Even if they didn't originate there, it's easy to say that they're active there.
Yeah, I guess that would be more accurate. Do you see the "Pegasi-in-Greece" plane as a separate Prime Plane from LaTerre though?
No. In fact I always assumed LaTerre was simply the world (map and all), with all the ancient cultures in the appropriate places. It doesn't have to include every culture that had myths, after all, and it's easy to fuzzy up the boundaries around them. What I took the "mythical elements each in their own culture and nowhere else" thing is nothing more than limits on the range of those creatures. So it just means that while Dimension of Myth Greece has pegasi, there are no pegasi in France, or Native America, etc.

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:48 am

Worlds of Cthulhu Magazine had some articles on Averoigne (as an RPG setting, though not for D&D) in it. There was more in issue #2, #3, and #4.

James Wyatt's article "The Seeds of Evil" in Dragon #249 was about using the Historical Reference series with the Masque of the Red Death campaign setting, and chronicled the slow rise of the Red Death in various eras. Whether or not this applies to the world of Laterre is up to the individual DM, but Roger E. Moore suggested they were the same world in Polyhedron #116 ("The magical Earth containing Averoigne is called "Laterre" (French for "the Earth"); it could easily be the very same magical Earth described in the historical reference sourcebooks..."). Moore also made this connection in his article Chronomancy and the Multiverse, which was originally published on TSR's AOL folder and later on WotC's website (it's still there). The sourcebook Chronomancer made the connection between the HR series and Masque of the Red Death explicit.

Roger Moore also suggested that Laterre/Gothic Earth eventually became the Gamma Terra setting of the Gamma World RPG, an idea I'm much less enthusiastic about (the idea seems tonally dissonant, though it might be fun to create a variant version of Gamma World with a Gothic/Lovecraftian horror slant). In Polyhedron #115 he even connected it to the Magitech setting for the Amazing Engine RPG. I do think, however, that it should be a given that millions of years in the future, the world of Averoigne eventually becomes the continent of Zothique that Clark Ashton Smith wrote about in a series of short stories. There's a d20 guide to the Zothique setting here. It's not directly related to Mystara, since it's so far in the future, but the PCs in Castle Amber do acquire a device that allows time travel, so a journey to Zothique (and other eras, including Poseidonis) isn't out of the question.

The HR series are a mixed bag. Some of them are very mythic (especially the Vikings one), others tend to be very low-magic and realistic, and still others leave a variety of options for magical levels in play. They all generally assume slower, more limited spellcasting than a standard D&D campaign, however.

Since Clark Ashton Smith's world is essentially also H.P. Lovecraft's world (and Robert E. Howard's), there are a limitless variety of possible ways to expand this setting.

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:25 am

ripvanwormer wrote:Since Clark Ashton Smith's world is essentially also H.P. Lovecraft's world (and Robert E. Howard's), there are a limitless variety of possible ways to expand this setting.
Even more than that, actually. Alan Moore did a really great job of mixing up and blending many, many fictional "worlds"/settings in his Traveller's guide in the second volume of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Averoigne specifically gets a callout. Thought I knew of an online reference (or reprint) of the piece, but I can't find one offhand.
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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:33 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:Even more than that, actually. Alan Moore did a really great job of mixing up and blending many, many fictional "worlds"/settings in his Traveller's guide in the second volume of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Averoigne specifically gets a callout. Thought I knew of an online reference (or reprint) of the piece, but I can't find one offhand.
The third volume (The Black Dossier) is even better in that regard, since it's more of an anthology and sourcebook for Alan Moore's hybrid world than a single narrative. But I was trying to be conservative; Smith, Lovecraft, and Howard (and many others, including Brian Lumley, August Derleth, Stephen King, and so on) were consciously exploring a shared universe, while when Moore worked in George Orwell's 1984, Gulliver's Travels, Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone, Homer's Iliad, Shakespeare's The Tempest, Edward Spenser's The Faerie Queene, Fanny Hill, P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves and Wooster series, both the movie and the original book versions of James Bond, The Avengers, Virginia Wolfe's Orlando, Sherlock Holmes, Jekyll and Hyde, The Invisible Man, Dracula, Jack Kerouac's On the Road, The War of the Worlds, The Island of Doctor Moreau, The Mysterious Island, The Third Man, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, and Greyfriar's School his universe became something other than what the original authors intended. So while I think it might be safe, at this point, to assume a connection to Lovecraft in a world based on Clark Ashton Smith's stories, it might be a bit overhasty for me to claim that this is necessarily also the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen world (though it could be, if you want it to be!). But it's definitely true that any connection to Lovecraft's universe invites connections to a limitless variety of other works that have used Lovecraft's themes and tropes.

Long before Alan Moore, Philip Jose Farmer created the Wold Newton Universe in which many characters from pulp fiction were related and interacted in the same world (and he, of course, didn't invent crossovers either, which have been happening at least since Jason and the Argonauts).

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Havard » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:16 am

GMWestermeyer just posted in his Spelljammer Timeline thread adressing the connections between Mystara, Laterre and the overall AD&D cosmology. He refers to Roger Moore's Chronomancy article which places 1012 AC = A.D. 1600. According to that post, Roger Moore also explictly links Averoigne with the Mythic Earth of the AD&D HR series and Ravenloft's Gothic Earth.



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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by Havard » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:35 pm

I have been thinking about Laterre a bit again. One of the things that interest me are the possible touching points between LaTerre and Mystara's Dimensions.

We know that:
Mystara Timeline wrote:728 AC: In Laterre, Etienne d'Ambreville creates a magical gate, enabling the d'Ambrevilles and their dependents to leave the world of Laterre. Marcel killed in rearguard action; Marie-Helen badly injured but survives.


Using Ripvanwormer's LaTerre Timeline, this corresponds to the year 1030 on LaTerre.


What about earlier contact between the two Dimensions?

The Northern Reaches
If we accept the idea that the world of Midgard is not an Outer Plane, but in fact the name the Northmen use to refer to LaTerre, there could be alot of contact between the Northern Reaches and LaTerre? The Codex Immortalis (fan created) lists Thor's ascendance to Immortality to 1750 BC. Could he have been adventuring in LaTerre's Scandinavia around BCE 2000 as part of his quest for Immortality? Possibly alongside Loki, Freyj and Freyja? Together they could in fact be the founders of Northman culture on LaTerre? Note that there's no settlement in Scandinavia prior to this because of the Ice Age.

Karameikos
Going with a similar theory, what if Halav, Petra and Zirchev visited Ancient Greece ca 700 BCE (BC1000 on Mystara)? We don't know much about what adventures they had after defeating the Gnoll Invasion, but we do know that they had to quest for Immortality after this. Could this have inspired some of the legends of Greek myth? One idea I had was that Halav would become the inspiration for LaTerre's Hercules, but it does seem a bit late for that for the timelines to add up.


Thunder Rift
I'm going to switch this around a bit. The Wizard Pickman most likely visited LaTerre on multiple occasions ca AC1000 and even fathered (magically gifted children) there. In the future, some of his descendants will suffer persecution during the Salem Witch Trials. My original idea was that he would be of LaTerran origins. I guess that is still possible.


Thoughts?

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Re: What is known about Laterre?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:21 pm

Havard wrote:The Codex Immortalis (fan created) lists Thor's ascendance to Immortality to 1750 BC. Could he have been adventuring in LaTerre's Scandinavia around BCE 2000 as part of his quest for Immortality? Possibly alongside Loki, Freyj and Freyja? Together they could in fact be the founders of Northman culture on LaTerre? Note that there's no settlement in Scandinavia prior to this because of the Ice Age.
That's an intriguing theory!
Going with a similar theory, what if Halav, Petra and Zirchev visited Ancient Greece ca 700 BCE (BC1000 on Mystara)?
Consider also the rogue Immortals from IM2: Wrath of Olympus. Could Bemarris, Kythria, Lokena, Palson, Patura, Turmis, and Taroyas have visited LaTerre and become inspired there to take on the guises of the Greek deities Ares, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Hera, Hermes, and Zeus? The Codex Immortalis includes an elaborate storyline in which those Greek deities were imprisoned in something called the Mandala of Myth after unsuccessfully attempting to invade the Multiverse Dimension, and the Mystaran Immortals ended up becoming possessed by their essences, but it seems also possible that the Immortals simply visited LaTerre. Maybe Halav, Petra, and Zirchev showed them the way, or they researched the journeys of those earlier Immortals?

Other Immortals who may have originated on LaTerre:

Nyx
Sinbad
Bastet
Idraote
Rad (obviously)
Tyche
Odin
Hel

A number of artifacts from the Master Set have stronger connections to Earth legends than known Mystaran ones. Ornit's Lance of Doom doesn't have any connection to Mystara that I'm aware of, but Ornit is a known hero of Earth/LaTerre. The "Other Magic Items" section on page 63 has a wealth of artifacts that are probably LaTerran artifacts: Ambrosia, the Arrow of Abaris, the Bag of Aeolus, the Sibylline Books, Solomon's Magic Carpet, the Holy Grail, Clavileno, the Necklace of Harmonia, the Ring of Amasis, Ar'ondight, Balisarda, Balmung, Colada, Courtain, Duradain, Excalibur, Flamberge, Glorius, Joyeuse, Mimung, Morglay, Nagelring, Philippan, Sauvagine. Some of these might have been brought to Mystara during the immigration to Glantri, but they have strong Laterran origins.

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