Maiar

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.

Maiar

Postby Havard » Fri May 19, 2017 4:05 pm

Lotr Wikia wrote:The Maiar (the singular of which is Maia) were nearly-primordial spirits that descended into Arda to help the Valar first shape the World. They were supposed to be numerous, yet not many were named. Their chiefs were Eönwë, banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, and Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda.[1]
Of these spirits, in the Third Age, were the incarnated Wizards.


Source: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Maiar

Have you ever used Maiar in your games? I guess more would be available if your campaign is set in the second or first age.

I used to think that Balrogs were related to the Maiar somehow, but I guess that is not the case?

What are some pit falls to avoid if using Wizards or other Maiar in a game?

-Havard

The Comeback Inn - My Blackmoor Forum
The Blackmoor Blog
My Articles at the Vaults of Pandius
Moderator of the Mystara, Blackmoor and Thunder Rift forums.
My moderator voice is
GREEN.
User avatar
Havard
Dragon Turtle
 
Posts: 16600
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:32 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Maiar

Postby Boneguard » Fri May 19, 2017 10:59 pm

Depending on the time in which I play Gandalf, Saruman or the Necromancer/Sauron have been used but in a subtle fashion, to give cryptic clues or as a hidden antagonist directing the enemy forces rather the confronting them one on one.
Roleplaying is not a Hobby...it's a Way of Life.

Consolidated projet thread
User avatar
Boneguard
Frost Giant
 
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:00 pm
Location: Gatineau (Quebec) Canada

Re: Maiar

Postby JamesMishler » Fri May 19, 2017 11:46 pm

Balrogs are fallen Maiar of lesser sort; they turned from the rest of the Valar to follow Morgoth.

Sauron was a Maia of greater sort, who had been trained under the Vala Aule, the maker of the dwarves; in his greed he turned to the ways of Morgoth. It is said by some that in Valinor before time, Sauron and Gandalf had been friends in their disembodied forms... bringing even greater tragedy to their emnity in Middle Earth.

Thus, Maiar are lesser angels and Balrogs are demons, of a sort...
User avatar
JamesMishler
Gnoll
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:07 am
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: Maiar

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat May 20, 2017 8:00 pm

Valaquenta, Of the Enemies:

Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might... From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt of all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless... He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness. And darkness he used most in his evil works upon Arda, and filled it with fear for all living things.

Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwe and all of the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down to his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people.


Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 1:

And Melkor knew of all that was done, for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause;


Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 3:

But in the north Melkor built his strength, and slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Untumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.
ripvanwormer
Black Dragon
 
Posts: 2857
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Maiar

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:19 pm

If it comes from the Silmarillion, that explains why I've not heard of it.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 20759
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Maiar

Postby Havard » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:37 pm

Big Mac wrote:If it comes from the Silmarillion, that explains why I've not heard of it.


Indeed, the Silmarillion explains a lot of stuff. The Maiar is basically another name for what the Lord of the Rings refers to as Wizards, although as James explained, Balrogs were also once of that race.

For various reasons, I always assumed that the fact that Gandalf was a Maiar was why he was allowed to return as Gandalf the White after his battle. Does this mean that Balrogs are also able to return from the dead?

-Havard

The Comeback Inn - My Blackmoor Forum
The Blackmoor Blog
My Articles at the Vaults of Pandius
Moderator of the Mystara, Blackmoor and Thunder Rift forums.
My moderator voice is
GREEN.
User avatar
Havard
Dragon Turtle
 
Posts: 16600
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:32 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Maiar

Postby JamesMishler » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:09 am

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:If it comes from the Silmarillion, that explains why I've not heard of it.


Indeed, the Silmarillion explains a lot of stuff. The Maiar is basically another name for what the Lord of the Rings refers to as Wizards, although as James explained, Balrogs were also once of that race.

For various reasons, I always assumed that the fact that Gandalf was a Maiar was why he was allowed to return as Gandalf the White after his battle. Does this mean that Balrogs are also able to return from the dead?

-Havard


The Istari were merely five Maiar chosen to take on a physical mortal form in Middle-earth to fight against Sauron; there were many, many Maiar. The Istari or "Wizards" were supposed to educate, inspire, and rally the mortal races, not actually get physically involved in any great way, for the Valar were not allowed to interfere directly in Middle-earth after the Second Age. Saruman the White fell from grace when he turned to Sauron and became the Wizard of Many Colors; that is why when Gandalf died, he was returned as Gandalf the White (with Saruman's forsaken position and power), and when Saruman died, he was lost forever. There is no record of the end of Radagast or of the two Blue Wizards who went into the East.

Similarly, the Balrogs would not return from the dead; that was at the will of the Valar, and Saruman and the remaining balrogs had cast their lot with Middle-earth, or rather the conquest of it, and thus when they died they became, at best, ineffective disembodied spirits, if they did not fade out beyond the Outer Dark, where Morgoth was cast at the end of the First Age.

Interestingly, Tolkien briefly considered a sequel to the Lord of the Rings that involved the return of Morgoth from beyond the Veil of Night... though nothing ever came of it. However, it was a central factor in my Fourth Age campaign that never got anywhere...
User avatar
JamesMishler
Gnoll
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:07 am
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: Maiar

Postby Big Mac » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:25 pm

JamesMishler wrote:
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:If it comes from the Silmarillion, that explains why I've not heard of it.


Indeed, the Silmarillion explains a lot of stuff. The Maiar is basically another name for what the Lord of the Rings refers to as Wizards, although as James explained, Balrogs were also once of that race.

For various reasons, I always assumed that the fact that Gandalf was a Maiar was why he was allowed to return as Gandalf the White after his battle. Does this mean that Balrogs are also able to return from the dead?

-Havard


The Istari were merely five Maiar chosen to take on a physical mortal form in Middle-earth to fight against Sauron; there were many, many Maiar. The Istari or "Wizards" were supposed to educate, inspire, and rally the mortal races, not actually get physically involved in any great way, for the Valar were not allowed to interfere directly in Middle-earth after the Second Age. Saruman the White fell from grace when he turned to Sauron and became the Wizard of Many Colors; that is why when Gandalf died, he was returned as Gandalf the White (with Saruman's forsaken position and power), and when Saruman died, he was lost forever. There is no record of the end of Radagast or of the two Blue Wizards who went into the East.

Similarly, the Balrogs would not return from the dead; that was at the will of the Valar, and Saruman and the remaining balrogs had cast their lot with Middle-earth, or rather the conquest of it, and thus when they died they became, at best, ineffective disembodied spirits, if they did not fade out beyond the Outer Dark, where Morgoth was cast at the end of the First Age.

Interestingly, Tolkien briefly considered a sequel to the Lord of the Rings that involved the return of Morgoth from beyond the Veil of Night... though nothing ever came of it. However, it was a central factor in my Fourth Age campaign that never got anywhere...


It sounds like the Maiar wouldn't be accessible after that time. I guess that might knock out the idea of having wizards or magical creatures, like the balrogs. I'm kind of wondering how the Forth Age would work. :?

I looked up Morgoth on The One Wiki and got redirected to an article called Melkor. It suggested that was Morgoth's original name and that Melkor had existed since the start of creation. It also suggested that Melkor/Morgoth was an Ainur. And the Ainur article says that Ainur were "beings encompassing both the Valar and the Maiar". So, I'm wondering what the end of the Valar would mean for Ainur. This isn't really something I've noticed about The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. And I'm not sure how I'd use this sort of thing in a tabletop game.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and The Piazza's Google + community so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum. My moderator voice is green.
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
 
Posts: 20759
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: London UK

Re: Maiar

Postby JamesMishler » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:44 pm

Essentially, the Valar and Maiar (together known as the Ainur) were the Angels, and Eru was God.

Melkor was the mightiest of the Valar during the time before time, when the Valar and Maiar sang the Song that brought the World into being. At first, Melkor went along with the melodies produced by the group, but then he brokw away on his own, with his own melody. Most of the other Ainur kept to the Song, and some sang a counter-melody against Melkor's, while others went along with him.

Then, after the Song, Eru waved his hand and brought the World into being, based on the melodies of the Song. Most (but not all) of the Ainur went into the world, but then found it only in its basic form; it was brought into being as the Song had began, wnd then each of the Ainur had his or her place to play in making the Song reality.

And so Melkor broke away from the others, and much like Loki in the Norse myths, at first seemed friendly, sometimes not. Finally, in the end, after he brought about the fall of the Lamps and the Trees, he retreated from the West and made the entirety of Middle-earth his realm. When the Elves awoke far in the East, and then began their march to Valinor in the West, Melkor and his followers harried them and captured and slew them, and thus he was known as The Enemy, and the Elves named him Morgoth ("Power of Darkness"). So Melkor and Morgoth are one and the same.

At the end of the First Age Melkor/Morgoth was taken prisoner by the Valar and cast outside of the World; not into the ethereal heavens of Eru, but into Outer Darkness. Sauron and some Balrogs remained.

At the end of the Second Age the Valar removed Valinor from the mortal world; whether the world had been flat and this made it into a sphere, or it was a sphere and it was somehow merely made smaller is not known. But only the Elves and the Isstari know the Straight Path to Valinor, and only those who are granted the grace of the Valar may make the trip. All the Ring-Bearers did... Bilbo, Frodo, and even Sam, in the end, and Gimli was allowed to go into the West (the only dwarf in all of history to do so), with his BFF, Legolas, once they had tired of life...
User avatar
JamesMishler
Gnoll
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:07 am
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: Maiar

Postby Khedrac » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:11 pm

JamesMishler wrote:Essentially, the Valar and Maiar (together known as the Ainur)

One additional clarification: if my memory serves me the Valar and Maiar where those of the Ainur who entered into the world the great music had created. Those who remained behind/outside are technically still just "ainur" but are not active in thw world (probably).
"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might just be a crow".
User avatar
Khedrac
Ostego
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 10:19 am
Location: Andover, UK


Return to Middle-earth

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests