B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

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B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:55 pm

I noticed just now that on p. 5 of that module, right below the header "Getting started", it states that the PCs should have around 5000 xp each. This would put them at 3rd level for most classes, with a thief at level 4 and an elf at level 2. So, the cover should probably state that the level is 3-4, not 2-4. As the adventure puts quite some challenges on the table, these levels are needed, I think. Has anyone DMed this adventure and can relate how the PCs made their way through it?

I´m pondering if I should start a 5e Karameikos campaign, and would love to DM this gem. Of course, the PCs would need to gain some levels before tackling this, as I don´t think that a 1st level group will survive this, unless toned down severely.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:48 pm

It is definitely a tougher module, right from the very first encounter. I made the mistake of trying to run a group of 1st level PCs through this at one point, and they struggled through it, up until the point they almost TPK'd in an encounter in the 2nd or 3rd part of the module against a group of undead. So your instincts are correct, I'd say it would be better described as 3-4, and not 2-4. I'd say that a cleric would also be an absolute must for the party- the group I ran had a cleric, but it was a dwarf-cleric, so while they had healing, they didn't have some much needed turning undead (which would have almost certainly changed their near TPK).

If you're looking to do an intro to get them a few levels, I'd suggest a couple of options:

1) Run them through the introductory adventure in the Mentzer red box set, if you have it. The dungeon there is the one that Bargle uses as his lair near to Threshold, so it has direct connections to the starting region;
2) Run one of the B level adventures. Many of them are more mini-campaigns in and of themselves (B2, B3, B4, B5, B7). I'd suggest either one of the short adventures from B9 (Castle Caldwell is pretty quick, even if you add the basement level), or B11 King's Festival;
3) Alternatively, if you have it, you could start them on B1-9: In Search of Adventure, but find a way to work the beginning of B10 into the adventure track therein, so that it feels more seamless.
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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:52 pm

Thanks for your reply, which confirms my assumptions. I´ve seen an encounter with 5 shadows - this could spell doom even for a 3rd level group, especially if they lack magical weapons (wait-were shadows undead back then?), and another one with 2 wyrds.
Overall, the adventure seems to be just the right stuff to change from the 5e first tier to the second tier, quite close to the old transition from Basic to Expert. If they are successful, they thwarted the Iron Ring and discovered very interesting parts of Karameikos, surely enough to make them important here.

As the adventure advises that the PCs (and players) don´t know Threshold before the adventure, I was indeed thinking about what I would use before starting this. I like B6 very much, but this goes into a different direction. Although, come to think of it, the PCs might get some dangerous enemies in that one, and it might be better for their health to leave town for a while... I was thinking about getting the Goodman Games "Into the Borderlands" anyway, and might use that one there. So many options, and so little game time...

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by agathokles » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:27 pm

Shadows are not undead. The adventure is for levels 2-4 assuming, as the OP noted, that level 2 characters are likely Elves (or equivalently slow progression classes).
Given the frequency of magical items in BECMI modules, it is expected that at 5000 XP at least one magical item suitable for attacking be available.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:15 am

stebehil wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:52 pm
Thanks for your reply, which confirms my assumptions. I´ve seen an encounter with 5 shadows - this could spell doom even for a 3rd level group, especially if they lack magical weapons (wait-were shadows undead back then?), and another one with 2 wyrds.
As Giampaolo notes, shadows were not undead in BECMI (though they are in every other edition, IIRC, even though I'm not sure how much sense it makes in AD&D with Shadow as a noted Plane of existence). Wyrds are, and there are several other undead encounters (notably on the Isle of Lost Dreams, which is where my group near TPKd).
As the adventure advises that the PCs (and players) don´t know Threshold before the adventure, I was indeed thinking about what I would use before starting this.
Ah, I'd forgotten about that. In that case, I'd definitely recommend B11: King's Festival, and then B12: Queen's Harvest. B12 ends with PCs at around 3-4th level, and in the town of Penhaligon. However, it would be easy to suggest that they end up in Kelven (for the start of B10) due to escorting Lord Kaerin Penhaligon and his bride-to-be Alarena Kelven back to her father's city for their impending nuptials. There, they can meet with Stephan to begin B10. It would be pretty simple to tie the Iron Ring in with the villains from B11/B12 as well (perhaps Ilyana Penhaligon was working with them) in order to lay some groundwork for both background on the Iron Ring as well as to set up some early rivalry with that group.
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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:11 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:15 am
Ah, I'd forgotten about that. In that case, I'd definitely recommend B11: King's Festival, and then B12: Queen's Harvest. B12 ends with PCs at around 3-4th level, and in the town of Penhaligon. However, it would be easy to suggest that they end up in Kelven (for the start of B10) due to escorting Lord Kaerin Penhaligon and his bride-to-be Alarena Kelven back to her father's city for their impending nuptials. There, they can meet with Stephan to begin B10. It would be pretty simple to tie the Iron Ring in with the villains from B11/B12 as well (perhaps Ilyana Penhaligon was working with them) in order to lay some groundwork for both background on the Iron Ring as well as to set up some early rivalry with that group.
Thanks again. I guess I will have some re-reading to do now.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:51 pm

Browsing through B11 and B12, these two take place to the north of Penhaligon, which is a GAZ-era addition to Karameikos, and not present on the B10 map at all. As Penhaligon lies somewhat close to Xitaqa (just some 25 miles, give or take a few), the latter will have to be quite hidden from casual discovery (have to reread that part of B10), especially if Castellan Keep is reached by river. The village of Stallanford lies about half-way between Penhaligon and Duke´s Road Keep, it seems, which makes sense, as the ~ 20-25 miles distance to each would be a day´s travel. The overall geography of these places should work nicely to string together B11-B12-B10 and make for a nice exploration-themed mini-campaign in northeastern and northern Karameikos. What´s more, after encountering Baron Sherlane in B12 already, the middle part of B10 might be even more interesting. Adding the Adventures from the AD&D2 box might be too much, but could be interesting as a kind of side quest.

I guess I have to work out this idea further now :-)

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by agathokles » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:09 pm

stebehil wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:51 pm
Browsing through B11 and B12, these two take place to the north of Penhaligon, which is a GAZ-era addition to Karameikos, and not present on the B10 map at all. As Penhaligon lies somewhat close to Xitaqa (just some 25 miles, give or take a few), the latter will have to be quite hidden from casual discovery (have to reread that part of B10), especially if Castellan Keep is reached by river. The village of Stallanford lies about half-way between Penhaligon and Duke´s Road Keep, it seems, which makes sense, as the ~ 20-25 miles distance to each would be a day´s travel. The overall geography of these places should work nicely to string together B11-B12-B10 and make for a nice exploration-themed mini-campaign in northeastern and northern Karameikos. What´s more, after encountering Baron Sherlane in B12 already, the middle part of B10 might be even more interesting. Adding the Adventures from the AD&D2 box might be too much, but could be interesting as a kind of side quest.

I guess I have to work out this idea further now :-)
Hail the Heroes especially can be a good addition, since it's set in Threshold. This assumes you set most of the early adventures in Northern Karameikos.

If you want to have the PCs come from Specularum instead, you can use the adventure ideas from the Gazetteer (Davinos' Complaint, Secret of Valdo Tisza, etc.), or the excellent Specularum Series by Ville Lahde which culminates in a revised Davinos' Complaint.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by pauldupuis » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:45 pm

We went through B10 with a party of 5 (2 fighters, 1 cleric, 1 MU, 1 thief) all at just a little over 3rd level in XPs. We completed B10 ending up all at around 5th level and we needed the advancement from earlier parts of the adventure to survive the later parts.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:41 pm

Paul, thanks for your reply. This confirms again what I assumed about the module.

I am just looking at B11 Kings Festival in Detail. A few thoughts about the first part:

- The orcs burn and pillage the temple, and kidnap the priest. I would assume that a village in that part of Karameikos would have at least a palisade as defense. Maybe the temple (or rather, shrine) is a bit outside the village, probably on a spot of historical significance. Otherwise, it would be very strange if the attackers could just run into the village, single out the temple for attack, and get away more or less unhindered.

- For 5e, the number of opponents in the orc dungeon seems too high for a first-level party. According to the encounter design guidelines (DMG, p. 81 ff), a group should have about as many encounters in an adventuring day that each character could reach the next level of experience (p. 84), or 300 xp for a first-level character. Now, an orc is worth 100 xp, so a dozen orcs should be the limit for a 1st-level party of four. In the adventure, I counted 18 normal orcs, 5 lieutenants, one chief and one spellcaster, along with a bugbear and some lesser creatures. This amounts to about twice as much xp as recommended for first-level chars. (Looking at the pre-gens in the adventure, they are quite powerful and well-equipped IMO, and so could deal with that challenge - barely) Furthermore, the damage the monsters deal is considerably higher in 5e than in BD&D, and orcs are no longer a "one-hit enemy". The original writeup has a few orcs with 3,2 or even 1 hp, who will die if hit even once, and a few other creatures with low hp.

I´m thinking about replacing the orcs with goblins here and the bugbear with a gnoll. This would end up roughly at the recommended total challenge/xp range for an adventuring day, as well as getting the PCs to 2nd level if they survive.

Opinions?

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by agathokles » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:57 pm

stebehil wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:41 pm
- For 5e, the number of opponents in the orc dungeon seems too high for a first-level party. According to the encounter design guidelines (DMG, p. 81 ff), a group should have about as many encounters in an adventuring day that each character could reach the next level of experience (p. 84), or 300 xp for a first-level character. Now, an orc is worth 100 xp, so a dozen orcs should be the limit for a 1st-level party of four. In the adventure, I counted 18 normal orcs, 5 lieutenants, one chief and one spellcaster, along with a bugbear and some lesser creatures. This amounts to about twice as much xp as recommended for first-level chars. (Looking at the pre-gens in the adventure, they are quite powerful and well-equipped IMO, and so could deal with that challenge - barely) Furthermore, the damage the monsters deal is considerably higher in 5e than in BD&D, and orcs are no longer a "one-hit enemy". The original writeup has a few orcs with 3,2 or even 1 hp, who will die if hit even once, and a few other creatures with low hp.

I´m thinking about replacing the orcs with goblins here and the bugbear with a gnoll. This would end up roughly at the recommended total challenge/xp range for an adventuring day, as well as getting the PCs to 2nd level if they survive.
Makes sense. However, consider that the PCs may not encounter all the enemies.

That said, if you are playing 5e, you should probably make similar accounts for the other adventures, including B10, which might be tricky, since there are some pretty busy days -- the first includes 20 Iron Ring Hounds, 2 Reavers, and 1 Cave Bear, and the second is the Battle at Sukyskin, which includes 13 dire wolves, 68 goblins, 7 goblin bodyguards, 2 chiefs, 5 vampire bats. So, if you start with level 3 characters, you might have them rise to level 4 by the time they recover the stolen horses.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by CommanderCrud » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:25 pm

I'm currently running B10 with 5e, started at level 1. I've left the monster numbers pretty much as-is. It's been pretty rough, but the PCs live and are currently on their way to the Black Peaks. Currently level 3.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:34 pm

Thinking about doing this "series", I might have to redo all adventures to put the PCs in the right level range, or otherwise ignore the 5e advancement table. Maybe having them advance to 2nd level at the end of B11, to 3rd level at the end of B12, and starting B10 at 3rd level, going up to 4th in the adventure and 5th at the end. The old adventures assumed much slower advancement, of course, even though I did not calculate the total xp gain for them. I guess I will rather take that route instead of redoing the adventures more or less completely. Still, I will have to look at the encounters closely, as some might overwhelm a group completely. Converting from the old rules to 5e is less straightforward than one might assume.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:37 pm

CommanderCrud wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:25 pm
I'm currently running B10 with 5e, started at level 1. I've left the monster numbers pretty much as-is. It's been pretty rough, but the PCs live and are currently on their way to the Black Peaks. Currently level 3.
Now that is interesting. As agathokles pointed out, the first day alone holds more than enough challenges, even though some enemies come in smaller groups. Do you have many spellcasters? I think the offensive cantrips can make quite a difference.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by CommanderCrud » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:37 pm

I'm using the 5e advancement tables but award monster XP at 1/10 the normal rate.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by CommanderCrud » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:41 pm

stebehil wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:37 pm
Now that is interesting. As agathokles pointed out, the first day alone holds more than enough challenges, even though some enemies come in smaller groups. Do you have many spellcasters? I think the offensive cantrips can make quite a difference.
Yeah 60+ goblins sounds bad, but there are around a dozen NPCs helping, and you are defending a walled structure with a tower. Smart players plus a good defensive position plus several NPCs evens out the odds considerably. PCs were a cleric, bard, wizard, and rogue.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:24 pm

CommanderCrud wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:41 pm
stebehil wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:37 pm
Now that is interesting. As agathokles pointed out, the first day alone holds more than enough challenges, even though some enemies come in smaller groups. Do you have many spellcasters? I think the offensive cantrips can make quite a difference.
Yeah 60+ goblins sounds bad, but there are around a dozen NPCs helping, and you are defending a walled structure with a tower. Smart players plus a good defensive position plus several NPCs evens out the odds considerably. PCs were a cleric, bard, wizard, and rogue.
This situation reminds me of a scenario in one of Paizos adventure paths (I think Age of Worms), where the PCs have to hold a small keep against a small army of lizard men attacking - but there they are at level 5 or 6 already, so this is no big deal. Yes, the siege situation gives the defenders an edge. And with three spellcasters, the magical advantage is considerable.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by Irondrake » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:09 pm

I ran this adventure in my campaign years ago. The party had five members to start, and as I recall, only the cleric and the thief were 4th level, with the rest of the group as a dwarf (3rd level), mystic (3rd level), elf (2nd level). We added in the NPC Stephan from the module to boost the party's strength. The party did well, and many of them leveled quickly due to the vast amounts of treasure that could be found in the story. The elf departed after a disagreement with the mystic, then a session or two later the group picked up two more PCs, a 4th level fighter and NM level gnome (from the PC2 supplement). All survived the adventure save for the dwarf, who died at 4th level in the petrified woods, mauled to death by dire wolves.

All in all, it is a tough (but fun!) adventure, and I'd certainly recommend the majority of the party be at least 3rd level before attempting it.

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B11, B12 and B10 as Karameikos campaign start

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:46 pm

Irondrake, thanks for your comment. Yeah, level 3 seems to be warranted here.

Now, to give that all more of an interesting backstory, I´m thinking of connecting these stories. Those random "clerics of chaos" popping up everywhere do need some more background besides "muhahaha, I´m evil". Agathokles wrote about the Dark Triad and the Gens Celaenes, both are evil cults. The latter operates within the Iron Ring, and would fit better with the story of B10. However, the stories of B11 and B12 do not indicate any connection to the Iron Ring, and Agathokles cast the evil priest Bernal as a Dark Triad member. I think I like that idea better than putting this at the hands of the Iron Ring yet again. The evil priest Petrides from B11 should be a member as well.

What about that idea: The Dark Triad has a long history in this parts. To this history belongs a "place of power" below Stallanford or the local shrine. The King Halav festival has a deeper function not known to the general populace: it keeps that unholy place in check. It needs to be presided by the local priest (kind of dedicated to the place, and thus gaining the knowledge of the importance). By kidnapping the priest and torching the shrine, the Dark Triad hopes to soften up the target for Ilyana Penhaligons attack, as well as drawing power from it. Why didn´t they kill Aralic outright? Perhaps he knows details about the evil place of power, perhaps they hoped to brainwash and convert him. Or even sacrifice him once they got hold of Stallanford to activate the evil place of power.

I´m not quite sure if and how I can build the story further with the events in B10, which hinge strongly on the Iron Ring, and I don´t want to change that. Perhaps that little plan of the Dark Triad is thwarted for now, and that is just it. Elwyn the Ardent and other members will not like that turn of events, though...

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by agathokles » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:58 pm

If you want another adventure connected to the Dark Triad, then Horror on the Hill should fit.
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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:11 pm

Stebehil- another possibility that occurs to me would be to tie the various groups in with module X12: Skarda's Mirror, which has a similar theme of banditry and evil terrorizing the northern reaches of Karameikos. X12 could be a good followup to B10.

(And there is a very vague history hinted at with "Queen" Ilyana's chaotic sword that might well trace its origins back to Halav's time. That could tie some things together as well.)
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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 pm

I will read up on this as well, thanks Cthulhudrew. I´m not sure in what direction I want to go after B10 now, but will examine some options.

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by Raymond » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:27 pm

I would think one option is to omit random encounters. Another option for low level expert play would be to send the whole party through XSOLO or XS1/Luln.

I didn't see where it said that PCs aren't recommended to have been from Threshold before the adventure.

Also, since BX1/SX1 was supposed to be at one point an Basic-Expert release, you might be inspired to use "The Curse on Hareth." I see it described at:

http://www.waynesbooks.com/NonTSRADD.html

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Re: B10 Night´s Dark Terror - Did anyone DM this? PC levels?

Post by stebehil » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:37 pm

Raymond wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:27 pm
I would think one option is to omit random encounters. Another option for low level expert play would be to send the whole party through XSOLO or XS1/Luln.

I didn't see where it said that PCs aren't recommended to have been from Threshold before the adventure.

Also, since BX1/SX1 was supposed to be at one point an Basic-Expert release, you might be inspired to use "The Curse on Hareth." I see it described at:

http://www.waynesbooks.com/NonTSRADD.html
Thanks for your ideas, although I fear that "The Curse of Hareth" will be out of reach for me.

It states on p.3 of the adventure: "If you wish to assign home towns to your PCs, it is best if these are not Kelven or Threshold, as these are part of the adventure and they should not be too familiar with them at first."

I´ve read Skarda´s Mirror in the interim. While I like the story overall, the starting part inside the mirror realm is quite railroady. But still, I like the general story enough, so this is on my list.

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