Various Elves in C&C

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Tim Baker
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Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:06 pm

I was reading through some C&C player options, and noticed that there's an unexpectedly high number of elf player races spread throughout the books. Here are some that I spotted. Am I overlooking more? Does anyone know why elves are so diverse in comparison to other races in C&C?

Players Handbook
  • Elf
Players Guide to Aihrde
  • High elf
  • Mist elf
  • Twilight elf
  • Wood elf
  • Wild elf
Hallowed Oracle Players Guide
  • True elf
  • Under elf
  • Savage elf
  • Wood elf
Codex Celtarum
  • Morwyn (fair elf)
  • Pren (tree elf)
  • Ysgodiaid (shadow elf)
Monsters & Treasure
  • Dokkalfar (dark elf)
  • Morwyn (fair elf)
  • Pren (tree elf)
  • Ysgodiaid (shadow elf)
Codex Germania
  • Sweartaelfen (dark elf)
Bluffside: City on the Edge
  • Nevaequarlani (offspring of drow and surface elf)
Expanded Races
  • Oasis elf
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Big Mac » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 am

Was Castles & Crusades anything to do with Gary Gygax?

If so, are any of these elf subtypes anything to do with him?
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:39 am

Big Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 am
Was Castles & Crusades anything to do with Gary Gygax?

If so, are any of these elf subtypes anything to do with him?
I believe Castles & Crusades was the last system that Gary Gygax wrote for before he passed. He was working on the Castle Zagyg series, which was Castle Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off.

I'm not sure if any of the elf subtypes had anything to do with him. Was he known for being a proponent of lots of elf subraces?
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Big Mac » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:51 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:39 am
Big Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 am
Was Castles & Crusades anything to do with Gary Gygax?

If so, are any of these elf subtypes anything to do with him?
I believe Castles & Crusades was the last system that Gary Gygax wrote for before he passed. He was working on the Castle Zagyg series, which was Castle Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off.

I'm not sure if any of the elf subtypes had anything to do with him. Was he known for being a proponent of lots of elf subraces?
I've heard of Castle Zagyg. That's "Gygax" backwards, with the "X" swapped for a "Z". :)

I'm not sure that Gary Gygax was into demihuman races. I think that might have been a minor thing that lots of gamers kept asking for more and more of. :?
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by shesheyan » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:24 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:39 am
Big Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 am
Was Castles & Crusades anything to do with Gary Gygax?

If so, are any of these elf subtypes anything to do with him?
I believe Castles & Crusades was the last system that Gary Gygax wrote for before he passed. He was working on the Castle Zagyg series, which was Castle Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off.

I'm not sure if any of the elf subtypes had anything to do with him. Was he known for being a proponent of lots of elf subraces?
Gary Gygax didn't write the C&C system. It was named in homage to him*. The Designer(s) are Stephen Chenault, Davis Chenault, Mac Golden, Robert Doyel, Todd Sandy, Todd Gray, James M. Ward.

The name of the game derives from the Castle & Crusade Society, founded in the pre-Dungeons & Dragons era by Gary Gygax.[1] The title is in homage to the role-playing industry's birth.»

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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:14 am

shesheyan wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:24 am
Gary Gygax didn't write the C&C system. It was named in homage to him*. The Designer(s) are Stephen Chenault, Davis Chenault, Mac Golden, Robert Doyel, Todd Sandy, Todd Gray, James M. Ward.

The name of the game derives from the Castle & Crusade Society, founded in the pre-Dungeons & Dragons era by Gary Gygax.[1] The title is in homage to the role-playing industry's birth.»
Correct. I didn't mean to imply that he designed the system, but he was writing products for it up until the time he passed. I recently listened to an interview with Stephen Chenault, where he talked about how Gary had contacted him to publish his content, but didn't want to use 3rd Edition rules. Stephen and Davis had already been talking about a simplified version of the d20 system that would run more like AD&D. When Stephen told Gary about it, Gary was sold on it.
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by shesheyan » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:34 pm

Tim Baker wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:14 am
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:24 am
Gary Gygax didn't write the C&C system. It was named in homage to him*. The Designer(s) are Stephen Chenault, Davis Chenault, Mac Golden, Robert Doyel, Todd Sandy, Todd Gray, James M. Ward.

The name of the game derives from the Castle & Crusade Society, founded in the pre-Dungeons & Dragons era by Gary Gygax.[1] The title is in homage to the role-playing industry's birth.»
Correct. I didn't mean to imply that he designed the system, but he was writing products for it up until the time he passed. I recently listened to an interview with Stephen Chenault, where he talked about how Gary had contacted him to publish his content, but didn't want to use 3rd Edition rules. Stephen and Davis had already been talking about a simplified version of the d20 system that would run more like AD&D. When Stephen told Gary about it, Gary was sold on it.
Rereading your post I see that I misread your sentence. :facepalm:

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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Havard » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:43 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 am
Was Castles & Crusades anything to do with Gary Gygax?
Not only was C&C marketed towards the Old School community. Gygax worked closely with its publishers and in addition to contributing to books like Castle Zagyg and others, he also openly supported the system.
If so, are any of these elf subtypes anything to do with him?
I can't say for certain, but these elf subtypes strike me as a likely nod towards Greyhawk and AD&D 1st Edition.

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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Angel Tarragon » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:24 pm

Tim Baker wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:14 am
shesheyan wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:24 am
Gary Gygax didn't write the C&C system. It was named in homage to him*. The Designer(s) are Stephen Chenault, Davis Chenault, Mac Golden, Robert Doyel, Todd Sandy, Todd Gray, James M. Ward.

The name of the game derives from the Castle & Crusade Society, founded in the pre-Dungeons & Dragons era by Gary Gygax.[1] The title is in homage to the role-playing industry's birth.»
Correct. I didn't mean to imply that he designed the system, but he was writing products for it up until the time he passed. I recently listened to an interview with Stephen Chenault, where he talked about how Gary had contacted him to publish his content, but didn't want to use 3rd Edition rules. Stephen and Davis had already been talking about a simplified version of the d20 system that would run more like AD&D. When Stephen told Gary about it, Gary was sold on it.
I am now more interested than ever before in checking out C&C. I love D&D 3E for how it changed the game and made it easier to understand. So I'd love to get a better look at C&C and see how it streamlines the D20 engine further.

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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:28 am

Angel Tarragon wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:24 pm
I am now more interested than ever before in checking out C&C. I love D&D 3E for how it changed the game and made it easier to understand. So I'd love to get a better look at C&C and see how it streamlines the D20 engine further.
You can get a feel for the rules with the free Quick Start Guide. If you like what you read, the Players Handbook is quite affordable for a hardback book of its size.
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:09 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:28 am
If you like what you read, the Players Handbook is quite affordable for a hardback book of its size.
Between now and Monday, 29-Oct-2018, you can use the coupon DIGITAL30 on the Troll Lord Games store site to save 30% on all PDFs. With the Players Handbook currently on sale for 50% off (US$9.99), that would make the Players Handbook a mere US$7.
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Big Mac » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:13 pm

Havard wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:43 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 am
Was Castles & Crusades anything to do with Gary Gygax?
Not only was C&C marketed towards the Old School community. Gygax worked closely with its publishers and in addition to contributing to books like Castle Zagyg and others, he also openly supported the system.
That does sound likely.

The 3rd Edition Era, the OGL and the SRD was a great opportunity for old TSR designers to come back and support product lines based on D&D. I don't think that WotC were expecting variant rulesets. It's certainly interesting that Gary Gygax backed C&C.

I wonder if anyone has ever made a list of the various things that ex-TSR designers have backed that were OGL based, to see if there were any significant swings in the 3rd Party Publisher market.
Havard wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:43 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:18 am
If so, are any of these elf subtypes anything to do with him?
I can't say for certain, but these elf subtypes strike me as a likely nod towards Greyhawk and AD&D 1st Edition.
Is there anything around with an overview of the C&C elves? All I've got to go on (in this topic) are the names. There are a couple that seem similar to D&D elves, but it would be nice to be able to do a comparison of specific subraces.

Are all of these subraces nailed down to specific regions of the C&C setting?
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Big Mac » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:17 pm

Tim Baker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:28 am
Angel Tarragon wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:24 pm
I am now more interested than ever before in checking out C&C. I love D&D 3E for how it changed the game and made it easier to understand. So I'd love to get a better look at C&C and see how it streamlines the D20 engine further.
You can get a feel for the rules with the free Quick Start Guide. If you like what you read, the Players Handbook is quite affordable for a hardback book of its size.
Thanks for posting that, Tim.

It looks like the elves in the Quick Start Guide are the generic elves of the Player's Handbook. So I'm not sure it will help much towards your topic in general, but it's a pretty good overview of the C&C system. I also saw a location mentioned there, called the Workhouse, that looks interesting enough that it could probably have it's own topic. :)
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:33 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:13 pm
Is there anything around with an overview of the C&C elves? All I've got to go on (in this topic) are the names. There are a couple that seem similar to D&D elves, but it would be nice to be able to do a comparison of specific subraces.

Are all of these subraces nailed down to specific regions of the C&C setting?
I'm not aware of a resource that pulls together information about each of the races. It would take more time than I currently have to summarize each one (I'm by no means an expert, and would need to read each one then summarize, as the content is Product Identity).

These come from several different C&C settings. Aihrde is the main campaign setting for C&C (includes the Players Handbook, Players Guide to Aihrde, Monsters & Treasure, and Expanded Races), but Hallowed Oracle is another, Bluffside is another, and Codex Celtarum and Codex Germania can either be used together or as their own individual settings, if I recall.
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Big Mac » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:18 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:33 pm
These come from several different C&C settings. Aihrde is the main campaign setting for C&C (includes the Players Handbook, Players Guide to Aihrde, Monsters & Treasure, and Expanded Races), but Hallowed Oracle is another, Bluffside is another, and Codex Celtarum and Codex Germania can either be used together or as their own individual settings, if I recall.
Ah. I didn't realise these were several sets of elves, rather than one large set of elves.

I suppose that, if the other races featured in two or more settings, but the elves were different for each world, the number of elves vs the number of humans, dwarves, gnomes, etc might not look so large.
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:26 am

Big Mac wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:18 am
Ah. I didn't realise these were several sets of elves, rather than one large set of elves.

I suppose that, if the other races featured in two or more settings, but the elves were different for each world, the number of elves vs the number of humans, dwarves, gnomes, etc might not look so large.
Interestingly enough, there doesn't appear to be nearly as much diversity from setting to setting for the other races. So there's still something special about elves going on here. :)
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Big Mac » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:19 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:26 am
Big Mac wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:18 am
Ah. I didn't realise these were several sets of elves, rather than one large set of elves.

I suppose that, if the other races featured in two or more settings, but the elves were different for each world, the number of elves vs the number of humans, dwarves, gnomes, etc might not look so large.
Interestingly enough, there doesn't appear to be nearly as much diversity from setting to setting for the other races. So there's still something special about elves going on here. :)
It it one medium-sized collection of subraces that is used across all C&C settings, or is it a number of smaller collections of subraces? :?
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:29 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:19 am
It it one medium-sized collection of subraces that is used across all C&C settings, or is it a number of smaller collections of subraces? :?
Subraces seem to be quite rare with the exception of elves in C&C settings.
  • Aihrde has the standard demihuman races, and only the elves have subraces.
  • The Haunted Highlands setting has no subraces (not even elves).
  • Hallowed Oracle has the standard demihuman races, and only the elves have subraces (but they're different from the ones in Aihrde).
  • Bluffside has steam gnomes, which are different from the gnomes in the other C&C settings.
  • Codex Germania and Codex Nordica have Bysen (a type of gnome), Barbegazi (dwarf), and Dweorg/Dvergar (dwarf), and an elf subrace.
  • Codex Celtarum has Korred and Duergar (dwarf) in addition to several types of elves.
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Big Mac » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:55 pm

It looks like your steam gnomes feature in a free adventure called Bluffside: Right Under Our Noses. :)
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Re: Various Elves in C&C

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:53 am

Big Mac wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:55 pm
It looks like your steam gnomes feature in a free adventure called Bluffside: Right Under Our Noses. :)
Good find!
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