Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

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Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Tim Baker » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:36 am

Here's a fun blog post that talks about the implications of Abeir in the current Forgotten Realms timeline. https://www.brandesstoddard.com/2018/09 ... ealmslore/

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:27 am

For me, Laerakond never left back to Abeir. (yeah, Laerakond is the actual name of the continent; nerdy trivia of the day :P). Even if they brought Maztica again, I will find a way to make Laerakond remain in Toril. There is a lot of unused water, anyways. If I ever advance my Neverwinter campaign beyond 1482, that is.

My reluctance of letting Laerakond waste away is because is Ed Greenwood's. That makes it Realmsian by default in my book.

As for the article, its good to see people trying to rescue the good bits of 4e. The guy needs to investigate more, thought. I mean, I updated the Laerakond articles in the FR wiki with the same "complete-ness" I've used with my Nentir Vale's post here.

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Tim Baker » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:34 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:27 am
My reluctance of letting Laerakond waste away is because is Ed Greenwood's. That makes it Realmsian by default in my book.
I didn't realize Ed Greenwood created this continent (or are you referring to the parallel version of Faerun?).

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:49 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:34 am
Zeromaru X wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:27 am
My reluctance of letting Laerakond waste away is because is Ed Greenwood's. That makes it Realmsian by default in my book.
I didn't realize Ed Greenwood created this continent (or are you referring to the parallel version of Faerun?).
I refer to both. The "canonical", Abeiran Laerakond was his only contribution to 4e's FRCG. He later expanded on the place in a pair of Dragon articles, talking about Gontal and Tarmalune.

He also created a version of Laerakond that exist on Toril since before the Spellplague for his home campaign. That was the time when he named the place Laerakond, as originally the place was only known by its Faerunian name (Returned Abeir). He later canonized the name in an Eyes on the Realms article (the one that talks about the magical gems of Rhauron).

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Big Mac » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:20 pm

I've actually been trying to go the other way and think of ways that 4th Edition Forgotten Realms material could be foreshadowed in the 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition Era. But some of that Harbinger of Doom stuff might help with that.
Last edited by Big Mac on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Tim Baker » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:52 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I've actually been trying to go the other way and think of ways that 4th Edition Forgotten Realms material could be foreshadowed in the 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition Era. But some of that Harbinger of Doom stuff might help with that.
That's a cool idea. I haven't heard anyone else talk about approaching it this way. Feel free to share some of your ideas if you get a moment.

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Big Mac » Wed May 22, 2019 10:53 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:52 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I've actually been trying to go the other way and think of ways that 4th Edition Forgotten Realms material could be foreshadowed in the 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition Era. But some of that Harbinger of Doom stuff might help with that.
That's a cool idea. I haven't heard anyone else talk about approaching it this way. Feel free to share some of your ideas if you get a moment.
Thanks.

I think I've touched on this a few times before. (I'm not sure if other people have too).

My main problem with doing this is a lack of familiarity with the 4th Edition material.

There is also the fact that I would need this stuff to fit into the context of the Spelljammer universe. I'm not sure how well it does that. The big issue is that "Abeirspace" would need to be a workable planetary system, with a sun and crystal sphere and Ao would need some sort of way to connect that crystal sphere to "Realmspace" and also keep it separate.
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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed May 22, 2019 7:53 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:53 am
There is also the fact that I would need this stuff to fit into the context of the Spelljammer universe. I'm not sure how well it does that. The big issue is that "Abeirspace" would need to be a workable planetary system, with a sun and crystal sphere and Ao would need some sort of way to connect that crystal sphere to "Realmspace" and also keep it separate.
Well, there is not a thing such as "Abeirspace". Abeir do exist in the Realmspace, but in a unique way. In the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, there is the following information:
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, page 154 wrote:At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selûne, trailed by a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selûne
Back in the time of 4e, Rich Baker said this about its location:
Rich Baker wrote:I don't think we've spelled it out precisely, but I believe it to be a "dimensional phase" sort of thing -- you don't really see the one planet in the other planet's sky, but they are closely linked (most likely by portals and easy planar magic) so you can travel between the two more easily than you could go off to, say, the Nine Hells... provided you know how to do it.
And here's Ed Greenwood's answer regarding Abeir and spelljamming:
Ed Greenwood wrote:If you spelljammed up off Abeir, where you found yourself would depend on WHEN you left the surface of Abeir.
If it was immediately before, during, or after its "collision/passing through/intersection with" Toril, you would be in Realmspace (in probably very dangerous "weather" of bursts of spontaneous, uncontrolled lightning, vortices of destructive winds, wild magic, and other hairy, ferocious and everchanging side-effects of the two worlds "passing through" each other).
If it was long before or well after that time (more than a perhaps six months or so, either way), you'd find yourself lost in the phlogiston...somewhere. (I.e. up to your DM what the nearest crystal spheres would be.) Or in another dimension altogether (again, according to your DM's desires).
So, to me this means a few things:

1. Abeir is located in a demiplane within Realmspace, orbiting near its twin planet, Toril, but out of phase with the rest of Realmspace. That's why you cannot see it in space, or access it normally.
2. Seems there is no other planet alongside Abeir in that pocket dimension (unless the DM wants it otherwise).
3. As the pocket dimension is out of synchrony with the rest of Realmspace, it seems that if you left the planet you'll end up in some dimensional limbo (either in another dimension, or directly in the phlogiston, as the DM wants it).
4. Seems Selûne is the only point in common between Abeir's pocket dimension and the rest of Realmspace. This means that perhaps there is a natural portal in Selûne connecting both places.

Also, if we go by the Sundering novels, Abeir seems to be orbiting the sun of Realmspace following an opposite movement of translation than Toril.

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Seethyr » Wed May 22, 2019 8:56 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I've actually been trying to go the other way and think of ways that 4th Edition Forgotten Realms material could be foreshadowed in the 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition Era. But some of that Harbinger of Doom stuff might help with that.
I am going to have to rely on others for the source, but I think Halaster had visions of the Spellplague’s occurrence prior to 4e. It drove him mad(der) and he died in an attempt to prevent it.
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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Big Mac » Fri May 24, 2019 2:12 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:53 am
Tim Baker wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:52 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I've actually been trying to go the other way and think of ways that 4th Edition Forgotten Realms material could be foreshadowed in the 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition Era. But some of that Harbinger of Doom stuff might help with that.
That's a cool idea. I haven't heard anyone else talk about approaching it this way. Feel free to share some of your ideas if you get a moment.
Thanks.

I think I've touched on this a few times before. (I'm not sure if other people have too).

My main problem with doing this is a lack of familiarity with the 4th Edition material.

There is also the fact that I would need this stuff to fit into the context of the Spelljammer universe. I'm not sure how well it does that. The big issue is that "Abeirspace" would need to be a workable planetary system, with a sun and crystal sphere and Ao would need some sort of way to connect that crystal sphere to "Realmspace" and also keep it separate.
I've decided to start a Spelljammer topic to discuss how the various alternative world options (including the Dragonlance thing of Takhisis stealing the world and the Greyhawk thing of there being five parallel worlds) fits in with Abeir and Toril: [Greyspace][Krynnspace][Realmspace] How do alternate worlds fit into Spelljammer?.

But it looks like I've missed some stuff, while I was writing it. :)
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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Big Mac » Fri May 24, 2019 2:34 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:53 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:53 am
There is also the fact that I would need this stuff to fit into the context of the Spelljammer universe. I'm not sure how well it does that. The big issue is that "Abeirspace" would need to be a workable planetary system, with a sun and crystal sphere and Ao would need some sort of way to connect that crystal sphere to "Realmspace" and also keep it separate.
Well, there is not a thing such as "Abeirspace". Abeir do exist in the Realmspace, but in a unique way. In the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, there is the following information:
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, page 154 wrote:At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selûne, trailed by a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selûne
Hmm. So this says there is one sun and two worlds. But are they sharing the one Selûne and the Tears of Selûne? Or do they have one lunar satellite and set of moonlets each? :?
Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:53 pm
Back in the time of 4e, Rich Baker said this about its location:
Rich Baker wrote:I don't think we've spelled it out precisely, but I believe it to be a "dimensional phase" sort of thing -- you don't really see the one planet in the other planet's sky, but they are closely linked (most likely by portals and easy planar magic) so you can travel between the two more easily than you could go off to, say, the Nine Hells... provided you know how to do it.
This is one of the things that frustrates me about the 4th Edition Realms material. You can't just throw down a radical idea, like an alternative world, and not explain how to get between it and Toril.

If Forgotten Realms can have dead magic zones and wild magic zones and they were going to add areas that had swapped with Abeir, they could have included zones or portals or gates or whatever, to get people over to Abeir. I think that what Rich Baker did with the Shadowfell in the Blades of the Moonsea novels was amazing. It would have been nice to have seen something similar with Abeir.

Maybe Rich Baker would have expanded on this, if they had not given him the elbow. :roll:

(Perhaps the fact that drow clerics were monkeying about with a volcano in Maztica could have been something that created a connection to that part of Abeir...or somesuch.)

BTW: Do you have a citation for where Rich Baker said this?
Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:53 pm
And here's Ed Greenwood's answer regarding Abeir and spelljamming:
Ed Greenwood wrote:If you spelljammed up off Abeir, where you found yourself would depend on WHEN you left the surface of Abeir.
If it was immediately before, during, or after its "collision/passing through/intersection with" Toril, you would be in Realmspace (in probably very dangerous "weather" of bursts of spontaneous, uncontrolled lightning, vortices of destructive winds, wild magic, and other hairy, ferocious and everchanging side-effects of the two worlds "passing through" each other).
If it was long before or well after that time (more than a perhaps six months or so, either way), you'd find yourself lost in the phlogiston...somewhere. (I.e. up to your DM what the nearest crystal spheres would be.) Or in another dimension altogether (again, according to your DM's desires).
Interesting. This actually clashes with what Rich Baker says, as Ed Greenwood said that Abeir would be in Realmspace at the time it collided with Toril, but not before or afterwards.

He seems to be suggesting that it would be in the phlogiston well before and after it was in Realmspace.

He also seems to be suggesting that Realmspace itself would be dangerous while Abeir and Toril were passing through each other.

Do you have a citation or link for this quote?
Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:53 pm
So, to me this means a few things:

1. Abeir is located in a demiplane within Realmspace, orbiting near its twin planet, Toril, but out of phase with the rest of Realmspace. That's why you cannot see it in space, or access it normally.
2. Seems there is no other planet alongside Abeir in that pocket dimension (unless the DM wants it otherwise).
3. As the pocket dimension is out of synchrony with the rest of Realmspace, it seems that if you left the planet you'll end up in some dimensional limbo (either in another dimension, or directly in the phlogiston, as the DM wants it).
4. Seems Selûne is the only point in common between Abeir's pocket dimension and the rest of Realmspace. This means that perhaps there is a natural portal in Selûne connecting both places.
I kind of think that what Ed Greenwood said and what Rich Baker said are not the same thing. A world can not both be inside Realmspace and out in the phlogiston, at the same time. :?
Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:53 pm
Also, if we go by the Sundering novels, Abeir seems to be orbiting the sun of Realmspace following an opposite movement of translation than Toril.
Looks like I would need to get those novels (or at least the ones that specifically cover that).
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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Zeromaru X » Fri May 24, 2019 5:53 pm

For Rich Baker's quote, he said that in the old WotC forums. So, that source is dead. It was once in the Secrets of the Archmages site, but it seems that site is also dead.

For what Ed said, the source is the Candlekeep forum. You can check out it here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22513&Se

As for the novel, I remember reading that hint in Ashes of the Tyrant. There is an scene seen from "the vantage of the Overgods", and when Unther (and other places of Toril that were in Abeir) were returned to Toril, and the regions of Abeir were returned to their planet, this particular scene depicts the two planets colliding and then phasing through each other. I guess that the logo of the Sundering novels also references this.

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by ripvanwormer » Fri May 24, 2019 6:11 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:34 pm
Hmm. So this says there is one sun and two worlds. But are they sharing the one Selûne and the Tears of Selûne? Or do they have one lunar satellite and set of moonlets each? :?
It says they share the same sun, but not that they have the same moon, so taking the text literally I'd assume the latter. Both worlds orbit the same sun in Realmspace and both have moons they call Selune, but the two Selunes aren't literally the same.
Interesting. This actually clashes with what Rich Baker says, as Ed Greenwood said that Abeir would be in Realmspace at the time it collided with Toril, but not before or afterwards.
No, Ed Greenwood said if you tried to leave Abeir via Spelljamming you'd end up in Realmspace during the conjunction with Toril, but not before or afterwards. That's not the same as saying that Abeir itself isn't in Realmspace outside of the conjunction.

Abeir is in Realmspace (on the Material Plane), but dimensionally out of phase with the rest of the sphere (excluding, probably, its moon). During the conjunction it came into phase, at least partially, with the rest of the sphere (which is why it was able to swap landmasses with Toril) and during that window of time you'd be able to reach wildspace from Abeir. Outside that window of time, a spelljammer leaving Abeir is still dimensionally out of phase with the rest of Realmspace, and thus unable to interact with anything. What does this mean? Ed Greenwood suggested that someone out of phase with the sphere might be forced into the Phlogiston, or else they might remain in some other dimension that the DM is left to flesh out.
He seems to be suggesting that it would be in the phlogiston well before and after it was in Realmspace.
No, he's suggesting that someone who left Abeir via a Spelljammer might end up "lost in the Phlogiston." Abeir orbits Realmspace's sun, so it's clearly not in the Phlogiston itself.

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Re: Implications of Abeir in Current FR Timeline

Post by Cromstar » Sat May 25, 2019 3:02 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:11 pm
Abeir is in Realmspace (on the Material Plane), but dimensionally out of phase with the rest of the sphere (excluding, probably, its moon).
There's an old scifi trope that I think Greenwood's vaguely alluding to which I'm going to try and provide a coherent(?) example of how it might be described in a scifi setting. This might help anyone having trouble picturing how this would work/look.

Basically the idea is that everything in the universe at the elementary particle levels vibrates on a quantum level. All the matter and energy in the universe vibrates on the same exact quantum 'frequency'. If, somehow, some matter or energy had this 'frequency' changed, it would 'rotate' through an axis of space-time that we don't perceive and become effectively invisible and intangible to all matter and energy that wasn't on that exact same new 'frequency'. Thus, two planets that were out of 'phase' like this, could occupy the same space-time (as we can perceive it), but not actually interact. If one of them started to shift back to the same 'frequency' as the rest of the universe, it would suddenly start to come into conflict with the matter and energy already occupying that same space. In a magical setting, this means swapping sections of land, entire continents, people, etc. and not, say, instantaneous nuclear annihilation.

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