Tiny Characters

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Seethyr
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Tiny Characters

Post by Seethyr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:20 am

Sleyvas on Candlekeep homebrewed the race of Kercpa (squirrel folk) recently here.

He struggled a bit with how to deal with the logic of the weapon damage such small characters would do, and frankly I don’t see a solution. Has anyone considered this? I visualize Kercpa as bow wielding rangers, but even if your not a min/max type of player, it seems to be reasonable you would be eternally condemned to spellcasting classes. Is there a solution or is this just reality?
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Re: Tiny Characters

Post by pawsplay » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:38 am

I think I would just make a custom weapon list for them. There are probably a limited number of conventional weapons they could wield two-handed or as heavy weapons. If they stick with a Dex-based class, they shouldn't lag so much.
Btw, as unsolicited advice, +6 Dex is too much, even printed examples of Tiny creatures rarely have such elevated scores.

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Re: Tiny Characters

Post by zontoxira » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:06 pm

D&D designers have yet to tap into sizes other than Medium and Small, quite possibly for balance issues, and the only main difference between M and S creatures is that the latter can't wield two-handed weapons. Tiny and Large races are therefore out of the question, since they get significant advantages and disadvantages that may require redesigning.

Having said that, nothing stops you from implementing any size in your game table. I can also think of a few rules to play a Tiny race:
1. The weapons are specially designed and deal their normal damage, but Tiny creatures can only wield light weapons. This ignores any effects their size might have, but also limits them from attacking with most martial weapons.
2. Tiny creatures can wield any weapon other than two-handed, but gain disadvantage to their attacks, due to them being oversized.
3. Damage is only an abstract number of how well you wield a particular weapon and Tiny creatures deal their normal damage with any weapon, appropriately sized, but due to their size, their Hit Die is reduced to the next lower increment; d10 becomes d8, d8 becomes d6 etc.
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Re: Tiny Characters

Post by Sturm » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:29 pm

I don't think any D&D edition has given serious thought about the matter of size which is IMO mostly a matter of weight. If you weigh half your opponent, or even less, is going to be extremely difficult for you to move him/her and practically impossible to pin her/him down. Therefore in any kind of fight based on strenght you will be crushed. The only options you have are range weapons, stabbing/cutting or some martial art which uses the opponent's strenght against him/her. Even in this last case, which I tried personally, it is much more difficult than against one of your size. I mean that against one of your size, you may succeed even if your technique is not perfect, but against an opponent bigger/heavier than you, your technique has to be perfect of you will fail. Also if you are very much smaller/lighter you simply cannot block your opponent/keep him down even if you are really good at martial arts. The best you can do is tripping him/her and hope she/he kills himself/herself in a fall. Smaller monks just cannot fight in the same way as medium size monks.
I do not think that D&D generally simulates this well. Probably tiny creatures, even if they could have dexterity bonus, should also have much more serious strenght and hit points malus, leading to the consequence that a 1st level tiny creature should really have no chances against a 1st level medium size one.
Same is true for giants against humans. Human should stand no chance unless he/she is seriously good at firing/stabbing/cutting/tripping and even in this case the amount of damage the human should be able to do in each attack should be very limited relatively to the giant's hp, i.e. taking him down should require a very long time unless the humans are many.
In the specific example, half damage from weapons in a creature 1,5 foot tall does not make much sense. If the height is 1/4 of medium size, then the weapon should do 1/4 of damage. And hit points and strenght too should be just 1/4 of a medium character of the same level.
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Re: Tiny Characters

Post by pawsplay » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:17 am

Humans caused the extinction of enough megafauna that I believe size can be overcome.

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Re: Tiny Characters

Post by Sturm » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:48 am

That's still quite debated among scientists, anyway obviously a number of smaller creatures can certainly overcome a bigger one, yet my point is the rules often tend to downplay how hard could be to incapacitate or kill a creature much bigger than you.
A tiny character should do much less damage than a medium one and suffers proportionally more damage when hit by a bigger creature, as he/she should have less hit points.
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Re: Tiny Characters

Post by Coronoides » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:08 am

My Tinker's Toolkit Race Design on the DM's guild has a very thorough treatment of different sized races in Part 3 including Tiny characters. These rules have had years of play testing in my campaigns including Green Isles.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813 ... ace-Design

There are extensive rules on equipment here's a quote about weapon damage cos I like you guys...

For scaled weapons, if the weapon is in the monster’s description use the damage listed (minus the monster version’s STR modifer (or DEX modifier if finesse) if the creature is not Tiny). If the weapon is not in the MM, for Large scale double the number of damage dice, and for Huge triple the number of dice. Gargantuan scaled weapons would be 4x the usual number of damage dice. I suggest halving the number of sides of the dice (round down) used for Small weapons (for example a 2d6 becomes 2d3, a d2 becomes 1 damage, 1 damage becomes 0 damage). Using this system a Small Greatsword does 2d3 slashing. Tiny weapons do 0 damage to most foes and 1 damage to Tiny foes if the Medium version does 1d6. If the Medium version does 1d8 or 1d10 then the Tiny version does 1 damage. If the Medium weapon does 1d12 or 2d6 then the Tiny version does 1d2 damage. In all cases Tiny PCs using Tiny weapons or unarmed strikes do not modify damage or attack rolls for STR ever, regardless of whether STR modifier is positive or negative the STR modifier is treated as +0 when using these weapons. Unlike MM versions Tiny PCs do add DEX to damage when using missile or finesee weapons. The addition of DEX to damage gives Tiny PCs more utility and is consistent with how the price for Tiny was calculated from weapon damage.
Unarmed damage is NOT scaled this way. Unless bought as a separate trait unarmed damage is 1 bludgeoning. Note though as described in “Tool Use 3+ and Size” below big creatures with good hands can upgrade Natural Attacks with a discount as shown on the table in that section. This is also an example of why this is a system for referees not players, yes you can upgrade natural attacks with a big discount but you should also use restraint and choose a ‘sub-optimal’ natural attack damage if natural weapons are not thematically important to the race. When building a Large or bigger race I recommend purchasing the following minimum damage levels for normal punching, kicking, etc. Tiny 0 damage, Medium or Small 1 damage at not cost, Large 1d2, Huge 1d4, and gargantuan 1d8.
The range of thrown and missile weapons does not increase with Large Size. Tiny weapons have half range. Small creatures in the MM use Medium scale weapons, but at a guess Small scale weapons have normal range (like Large they are only one Size away from Medium). Another guess, Huge and Gargantuan scale weapons have the double range (opposite of Tiny).
Reach weapons add the following to reach by Size Tiny 0 ft, Small or Medium or Large 5ft, Huge or Gargantuan 10 ft. This is the same progresssion as ranged weapons.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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