10th-12th level spells

Netheril: flying cities, ancient scrolls written on gold leaf, and just a little bit of hubris.
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10th-12th level spells

Post by Big Mac »

I'm copying stuff over here, from a Spelljammer topic called Want MrRhexx to talk more about Spelljammer?

Havard posted that topic, because one of a set of videos on high level spells (from the Netherese Empire) mentioned Spelljammer, and MrRhexx spoke enough about Spelljammer for the spell description to make sense.

Here are MrRexx's videos on Arcane Age spells: The first three videos discuss the spells banned by Mystra in the post-Netherese Age. The last video shows you the hidden rules that actually allow Faerûnian spellcasters to work around those restrictions and cast 10th level spells (in certain circumstances).

List of 10th Level Spells:
  • Lefeber's Weave Mythal: (Invocation/Evocation) Field: Inventive/Mentalism - Encyclopedia Arcana page 10
  • Mavin's Create Volcano: (Conjuration/Summoning) Field: Inventive - Encyclopedia Arcana page 10
  • Mavin's Earthfast: (Alteration) Field: Variation/Inventive - Encyclopedia Arcana page 11
  • Moryggan's Mythaleash: (Conjuration/Summoning, Evocation) - The Fall of Myth Drannor page 56
  • Proctiv's Move Mountain: (Alteration) Field: Variation - Encyclopedia Arcana page 11
  • The Srinshee's Spellshift: (Abjuration, Alteration, Divination) - The Fall of Myth Drannor page 61
  • Tolodine's Killing WInd: (Alteration) Field: Variation - Encyclopedia Arcana page 11
  • Valdick's Spheresail: (Conjuration/Summoning) Field: Inventive - Encyclopedia Arcana page 12
List of 11th Level Spells:
  • Mavin's Worldweave: (Alteration) Field: Variation/Inventive - Encyclopedia Arcana page 11
  • Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere / Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere: (Alteration) Field: Variation reversible - Encyclopedia Arcana page 11
List of 12th Level Spells:
  • Karsus's Avatar: (Invocation/Evocation, Enchantment/Charm, Alteration) Field: Mentalism - Encyclopedia Arcana page 10
There are not actually too many spells there. Nine in total, one of which is reversible.

And there are only actually a handful of spellcasters who ever learned how to create a 10th-12th level spell:
  • Karsus (Karsus’s Avatar 3519 NY)
  • Lefeber (Lefeber's Weave Mythal 1741 NY)
  • Mavin (Mavin's Worldweave 3205 NY, Mavin's Create Volcano 3258 NY, Mavin's Earthfast 3349 NY)
  • Moryggan (Moryggan's Mythaleash ?)
  • Proctiv (Proctiv's Move Mountain 1746 NY, Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere / Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere 1808 NY)
  • The Srinshee (The Srinshee's Spellshift ?)
  • Tolodine (Tolodine's Killing WInd 1500 NY)
  • Valdick (Valdick's Spheresail 2028 NY)
We know that Karsus died, when he cast his spell, and that it his spell research was immediately thrown to the ends of the universe, by Mystra, so nobody else would have been able to cast it.

The other spells were around for 170-2000 years, so the number of spellcasters who were able to access and learn the spells would have varied a lot.

The official Netherese attempts to expand into Realmspace and beyond ran from 2795-2895 NY (which is kind of weird, because it's 900 years after Proctiv created a spell that would only work on a crystal sphere and 770 years after Valdick created a spell that would only work in Wildspace and the Phlogiston).

Yeoman's Loft continued as a spelljamming port until the Fall, but only five ventures were using the port.

So it's not impossible for any of the other spells to make it off-world and therefore also to other parts of Toril. But I think the probability of other copies of spells existing is going to be higher for earlier spells and specifically spells created before 2895 NY.

Having said that, if Netheri: Emprire of Magic says that Mavin's Create Volcano has never been cast in Netheril, I wouldn't be surprised if Mavin chartered a spelljamming ship specifically to transport him to a place where he could cast the spell to see it working.

LAST EDIT: 10th level spells from The Fall of Myth Drannor added.
Last edited by Big Mac on Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Seethyr »

Time for lore as obscure as it gets lol. There was also a sorcerer vampire named Boucojin who used epic magic according to the adventure Quicksilver Hourglass in Dungeon 123.

He used it to find and make portals to places/demiplanes called timevoids.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

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Seethyr wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:51 pm
Time for lore as obscure as it gets lol. There was also a sorcerer vampire named Boucojin who used epic magic according to the adventure Quicksilver Hourglass in Dungeon 123.

He used it to find and make portals to places/demiplanes called timevoids.
Nice!

Did the issue list any 10th, 11th or 12th level spells that Bouconjin knew?
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

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Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:42 pm
Seethyr wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:51 pm
Time for lore as obscure as it gets lol. There was also a sorcerer vampire named Boucojin who used epic magic according to the adventure Quicksilver Hourglass in Dungeon 123.

He used it to find and make portals to places/demiplanes called timevoids.
Nice!

Did the issue list any 10th, 11th or 12th level spells that Bouconjin knew?
It was more done in the epic style from the Epic Level Handbook, but there was a spell called Vourzoun’s Multiplicity of Visage.

Going back and rereading, I noticed the adventure doesn’t technically mention spells of higher level, but rather switches to the third edition update of casting epic level spells from the ELH.

That spell was really cool though, it allowed a dragon to grow additional heads, each of which could use its breath weapon. That whole concept could make such an awesome magic artifact or even 9th level spell in 5e. It doesn’t seem like it would need to be 10th, 11th or 12th.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Seethyr »

On that note, have you considered looking at the ELH and retro converting its epic level spells for usage as 10th, 11th or 12th level spells? The ELH mechanic was really wonky and based on DC for casting. The lore and effects were really cool though and I wish 5e would give us a believable update.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Big Mac »

I just found some spells in The Fall of Myth Drannor!

List of Elven 10th Level Spells:
  • Moryggan's Mythaleash: (Conjuration/Summoning, Evocation) - The Fall of Myth Drannor page 56
  • The Srinshee's Spellshift: (Abjuration, Alteration, Divination) - The Fall of Myth Drannor page 61
There is nothing mentioned about the "Fields" mentioned in the Netheril: Empire of Magic rules, so it looks like the Cormanthyr half of the Arcane Age RPG line is not totally compatible with the Netherese half.

I'll add this to the above list.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by night_druid »

Ironically enough, aside from Karsus, there aren't really any details of the wizards who created the 10th & 11th level spells. No enclaves were named for them. Nor did Netheril include an NPC rooster to list the major arch wizards. Outside of a choice few, typically all you get in terms of details on the wizards is a name and maybe a bit of their personality in the write ups of the cities they made.

And I just noticed something else - Proctiv created his seal/breach sphere spells in 1808, Valdick created his spell in 2028. Um, Netheril did not discover Spelljamming until 2654. How exactly did they invent SJ-related spells in upwards of eight and a half centuries prior to the discovery of spelljamming? :P
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Big Mac »

Seethyr wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:58 pm
On that note, have you considered looking at the ELH and retro converting its epic level spells for usage as 10th, 11th or 12th level spells? The ELH mechanic was really wonky and based on DC for casting. The lore and effects were really cool though and I wish 5e would give us a believable update.
I've not really looked at the Epic Spells rules yet, but they are in the SRD. Thanks for the suggestion! :D

Converting 10th and 11th level spells (I wouldn't be using the 12th level one) to Epic Spells could be a way to get them to work in 3rd Edition rules.

Given that the spells from Netheril and Cormanthyr seem to work slightly differently, it would be good to tie them down to a single unified mechanic (which was setting neutral and which could be used with FR subsettings or even other campaign worlds).
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

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night_druid wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:07 pm
Ironically enough, aside from Karsus, there aren't really any details of the wizards who created the 10th & 11th level spells. No enclaves were named for them. Nor did Netheril include an NPC rooster to list the major arch wizards. Outside of a choice few, typically all you get in terms of details on the wizards is a name and maybe a bit of their personality in the write ups of the cities they made.
We can only infer that they were old enough to create spells on the years that Netheril: Empire of Magic says that they wrote specific spells. (I've only bothered with the 10th, 11th and 12th level spells, but you can use their lower level spells...and even magic items, to nail down more of their life.

I've got no idea how this "Fields" business, from Netheril: Empire of Magic is supposed to work yet. (I would have preferred normal spell rules...but with knobs on.) Perhaps we could infer what type of spellcaster options a given NPC might have by looking at their personal spell list and magic item list.

This is about on the level of mainstream D&D, where you get Greyhawk spellcasters listed in some of the spell names, without an explanation of who they are.

Presumably, if there were further Arcane Age adventures, they would have only have covered a single year in the NY calendar and would have only given detail on one or two arcanists.
night_druid wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:07 pm
And I just noticed something else - Proctiv created his seal/breach sphere spells in 1808, Valdick created his spell in 2028. Um, Netheril did not discover Spelljamming until 2654. How exactly did they invent SJ-related spells in upwards of eight and a half centuries prior to the discovery of spelljamming? :P
I already noticed that myself:
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:55 pm
The official Netherese attempts to expand into Realmspace and beyond ran from 2795-2895 NY (which is kind of weird, because it's 900 years after Proctiv created a spell that would only work on a crystal sphere and 770 years after Valdick created a spell that would only work in Wildspace and the Phlogiston).
And it also says that Netheril was in Wildspace for only 100 years and then conflicts itself by saying that five companies carried on using Yeoman's loft until the Fall.

This is something the editor should have picked up and asked Slade to clear up.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by night_druid »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:21 pm
I've got no idea how this "Fields" business, from Netheril: Empire of Magic is supposed to work yet. (I would have preferred normal spell rules...but with knobs on.) Perhaps we could infer what type of spellcaster options a given NPC might have by looking at their personal spell list and magic item list.
A good chunk of the book was devoted to rewriting the various classes and specialty priests for the 10 Netherese gods. In effect, they use the spell point system from Spells & Magic, just with some terminology altered (not sure which came first, or if it came from an earlier 3rd product). To me that section was just a giant waste of space; they REALLY should have just done an Arcane Age generalist book, and then Netheril as a specific campaign area as a separate book. Oh well.
This is about on the level of mainstream D&D, where you get Greyhawk spellcasters listed in some of the spell names, without an explanation of who they are.
IIRC the GH ones were PCs from Gary's game and had been detailed in a few rogue gallery products earlier. So they at least had some detail.
Presumably, if there were further Arcane Age adventures, they would have only have covered a single year in the NY calendar and would have only given detail on one or two arcanists.
Arcanists were pretty much the immortal rockstars of Netheril. Some had been alive for a good 2,000 years by the time of Netheril's destruction.
And it also says that Netheril was in Wildspace for only 100 years and then conflicts itself by saying that five companies carried on using Yeoman's loft until the Fall.
For a 3,500 year old civilization, their time in space is ludicrously short. But as I said before, Netherese were poor explorers. They have access to resources our own ancestors could only dream of, and yet they barely left their own little area. Their empire should have had trade agreements spanning the planet, sphere, and even into Sigil/City of Brass, and beyond. Netheril was just flat out lazy. ;)
This is something the editor should have picked up and asked Slade to clear up.
I get the impression that "Netheril" began as something else entirely in Slade's private game, and got morphed into the famous Empire of Magic. Wouldn't have been the first time, nor the last.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

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Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:01 pm
(snip) There is nothing mentioned about the "Fields" mentioned in the Netheril: Empire of Magic rules, so it looks like the Cormanthyr half of the Arcane Age RPG line is not totally compatible with the Netherese half. (snip)
That's because Cormanthyr was written by Steven E Schend who took time to write a product consistent with both Ed's version of the Realms and the good products that effectively made the published canon, while slade just filled a word count.

I know you posted that you preferred to try and incorporate even the substandard products (my words, not yours), but it's almost impossible to reconcile slade's take on lore, names, or rules with either the Realms or with D&D as written. Arcane Age was such a lost opportunity - and what I would give to have a proper FR campaign setting edited by Ed set in the era of the Crown Wars or in the Days of Thunder....

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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Princess Strega »

I am pretty sure that one of the 3E FR books has conversion for some of the Arcane Age spells as Epic spells. I am more tan certain that Proctiv's Move Mountain was one of them.

Als, I created a thread in the 3E forum for discussing epic spells.

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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Zeromaru X »

I guess that the "ritual of Unmaking" mentioned in Unholy (last novel of the Haunted Lands trilogy), should be a 12th level or higher spell (a spell that allows you to unmake reality and then remake it as you see fit, should qualify to be of those levels).

As Szass Tam was about to cast it in 1478 DR, I guess that means that during the post-Spellplague era Mystra's Ban was useless and you could cast spells of 10th level or higher during this age. The possibilities...

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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Big Mac »

night_druid wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:07 am
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:21 pm
I've got no idea how this "Fields" business, from Netheril: Empire of Magic is supposed to work yet. (I would have preferred normal spell rules...but with knobs on.) Perhaps we could infer what type of spellcaster options a given NPC might have by looking at their personal spell list and magic item list.
A good chunk of the book was devoted to rewriting the various classes and specialty priests for the 10 Netherese gods. In effect, they use the spell point system from Spells & Magic, just with some terminology altered (not sure which came first, or if it came from an earlier 3rd product). To me that section was just a giant waste of space; they REALLY should have just done an Arcane Age generalist book, and then Netheril as a specific campaign area as a separate book. Oh well.
True.

Well now Angel has pointed out the Epic Spells system, of 3rd Edition, I'm inclined to see if that does the job in a more logical way than the two different rebooted spellcasting systems in the different Arcane Age products.

(I'm also hoping that the system will work for campaign settings outside of Forgotten Realms.)

It does look like that has it's own clunkyness, what with there being things called Seeds and various sorts of sacrifices Epic Spellcasters can make to make Epic Spells less and less impossible to cast (until they make them achievable).
night_druid wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:07 am
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:21 pm
Presumably, if there were further Arcane Age adventures, they would have only have covered a single year in the NY calendar and would have only given detail on one or two arcanists.
Arcanists were pretty much the immortal rockstars of Netheril. Some had been alive for a good 2,000 years by the time of Netheril's destruction.
Fair enough. But without actual biographies of specific spellcasters, we can only guess at the dates they were born and died (or converted themselves to liches or archliches).
night_druid wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:07 am
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:21 pm
And it also says that Netheril was in Wildspace for only 100 years and then conflicts itself by saying that five companies carried on using Yeoman's loft until the Fall.
For a 3,500 year old civilization, their time in space is ludicrously short. But as I said before, Netherese were poor explorers. They have access to resources our own ancestors could only dream of, and yet they barely left their own little area. Their empire should have had trade agreements spanning the planet, sphere, and even into Sigil/City of Brass, and beyond. Netheril was just flat out lazy. ;)
The supposed theme for them not being in space long, was that they went around chopping up every spacefaring race they met in bizarre experiments. (You can see why that would make everyone who has heard of the Netherese attack them on sight.)

Oberon is supposed to have tried to "mend his nation's reputation in space", but I don't see how you can come back from being seen as a race of people who carry out vivisection on sentient creatures.
night_druid wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:07 am
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:21 pm
This is something the editor should have picked up and asked Slade to clear up.
I get the impression that "Netheril" began as something else entirely in Slade's private game, and got morphed into the famous Empire of Magic. Wouldn't have been the first time, nor the last.
It does seem to be a 2e thing, that people rewrite the rules for warriors, rogues, arcane spellcasters and divine spellcasters...instead of using the existing rules and a new background theme.

Netherese Arcanist should really just been a Wizard Kit, as should Elven High Mage.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Big Mac »

ScrivenerofDoom wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:40 am
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:01 pm
(snip) There is nothing mentioned about the "Fields" mentioned in the Netheril: Empire of Magic rules, so it looks like the Cormanthyr half of the Arcane Age RPG line is not totally compatible with the Netherese half. (snip)
That's because Cormanthyr was written by Steven E Schend who took time to write a product consistent with both Ed's version of the Realms and the good products that effectively made the published canon, while slade just filled a word count.
Hang on. The Fall of Myth Drannor uses Epic Spells, instead of Elven High Magic.

I know they were both supposed to be different approaches. (And I actually like the Elane Cunningham novel where a ton of elves cast a mass teleport spell together to move an entire nation of elves from a world in the process of being destroyed to Toril. But I would like to have consistent mechanics to look at.)

I think I'll see what the 3e Lost Empires of Faerûn can do for me.
ScrivenerofDoom wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:40 am
I know you posted that you preferred to try and incorporate even the substandard products (my words, not yours), but it's almost impossible to reconcile slade's take on lore, names, or rules with either the Realms or with D&D as written. Arcane Age was such a lost opportunity - and what I would give to have a proper FR campaign setting edited by Ed set in the era of the Crown Wars or in the Days of Thunder....
Well, I'm not totally against making any changes to things.

I am hoping to convert Spelljammer to 3rd Edition D&D. And that would involve using 3e mechanics for things that are in the Arcane Age products (if/when they are found in Realmspace).

It's more that if someone spends most of their time saying that Slade's work is awful...instead of posting suggestions on how to get the best out of what is there, you end up having to read everything they have read to work out what's going on.

So I'm starting to see issues with Slade's work now, but I'd rather skip straight to working out how to use 10th-12th level spells.

It looks like the Netherese approach (in theme) is for spellcasters to look for anything (ethical or not) to make them live longer and grow in power...

...while the elves of Cormanthyr have some sort of "less dangerous" version of powerful magic.

Now I need to do a bit more reading, get past the weird terms for things that already exist, and work out what sort of epic spellcasting I can have both races perform.

I'm actually thinking that that abandoned castle in the Tears of Selûne could be something sent up by Proctiv's Move Mountain. I'll have to check the date of the creation of the Tears of Selûne to confirm it happened far enough back.
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

Post by Big Mac »

Angel Tarragon wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:24 pm
I am pretty sure that one of the 3E FR books has conversion for some of the Arcane Age spells as Epic spells. I am more than certain that Proctiv's Move Mountain was one of them.

Als, I created a thread in the 3E forum for discussing epic spells.
That's a very useful topic. Thanks.

It's a totally different type of mechanic to the Arcane Age stuff. (I'm not sure if it is closer to the Elven High Magic approach.)
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Re: 10th-12th level spells

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Zeromaru X wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:03 am
I guess that the "ritual of Unmaking" mentioned in Unholy (last novel of the Haunted Lands trilogy), should be a 12th level or higher spell (a spell that allows you to unmake reality and then remake it as you see fit, should qualify to be of those levels).
I'm not sure on the power level.

It does sound like it is more powerful than Mavin's Worldweave. That spell only changes the climate for a region. The area of effect of that spell is "1 mile per level" (I think that should be "1 square mile per level".)

What is the area of effect of the Ritual of Unmaking?

Hang on, I found something on the Nevron article on Forgotten Realms Wiki that suggests the spell was going to transform the entire world of Toril.
Zeromaru X wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:03 am
As Szass Tam was about to cast it in 1478 DR, I guess that means that during the post-Spellplague era Mystra's Ban was useless and you could cast spells of 10th level or higher during this age. The possibilities...
It looks like the 3e Lost Empires of Faerûn book is suggesting that 10th Level spells were brought back as Epic Spells (and that Epic Spells were never restricted). That seems like a bit of a handwave to me...if Epic Spells never existed until the 3e rules. But I'm assuming it's retcon to allow for powerful spells while also claiming they were restricted.

I might start another topic to compare the different mechanics, as this is getting a bit outside of how 10th, 11th and 12th level spells worked.
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