Kender in Other Settings

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Kender in Other Settings

Post by apotheot »

In Ravenloft, Soth brought a village of kender into Sithicus in order to experiment. This resulted in the Kender Vampire. Of the top of my head, the only sources the kender in the domains of Dread are mentioned in are Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix 1, When Black Roses Bloom, The Necropolis Box set, Domains of Dread, and Ravenloft Gazeteer 1.

But this had me thinking, where else have the kender made it to outside of Krynn?

Obviously they could show up pretty much anywhere in Spelljammer, but does anyone know of any references?
Likewise they could show up in Planescape, and I feel I have seen a reference to one somewhere in Sigil but cannot place it. I know there is one that appears makes it to the planes in the Lost Gods series of novels.

Does anyone know any other setting that mentions them? Forgotten Realms? Greyhawk?

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

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1st edition Manual of the Planes, page 113: "The spirit legions mainly inhabit the uppermost layer of Acheron, where they gather into nations of similar beliefs or alignments. All spirit legions are lawful with tendencies toward evil. These comprise the spirits of those who died in wars after losing sight of their objectives, so that war became an end in itself for them. There are many humans in the spirit legions, as well as dwarves, halflings, kender, ogres, and all manner of other mindless soldiers."

The Maelstrom's Eye, a Spelljammer novel by Roger E. Moore, featured the kender Gaeadrelle "Gaye" Goldring as one of its main characters. She claims to have been wandering Wildspace for a decade already when Teldin Moore meets her on the Rock of Bral. She mentions studying art in Kozakura in Kara-Tur.

Emilo Haversack was introduced in Fistandantilus Reborn by Douglas Niles. He dove through a portal at the end of the book (set in 374 AC) and subsequently appeared in Tymora's Luck by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb (set in 1368 DR, according to this), where he was caught pickpocketing Jasmine of Westgate in Chirper's, a tavern in Sigil's Market Ward. The implication is that the portal in Fistandantilus Reborn led directly to Sigil.

The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings: "The Kender are native to Krynn and have been featured in numerous DRAGONLANCE® products, including Tales of the Lance and the DRAGONLANCE MC appendix (MC4). Originally found only on Krynn, their insatiable curiosity has led many to stow away aboard spelljamming ships, spreading individuals to many odd places."

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Dragonhelm »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:42 pm
The Maelstrom's Eye, a Spelljammer novel by Roger E. Moore, featured the kender Gaeadrelle "Gaye" Goldring as one of its main characters. She claims to have been wandering Wildspace for a decade already when Teldin Moore meets her on the Rock of Bral. She mentions studying art in Kozakura in Kara-Tur.
I thought Gaye was a half-kender. Am I remembering that wrong?

So yeah, beyond Dragonlance, they are seen in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and the Forgotten Realms, as mentioned above. It is likely they would be in Planescape as well, though I have no knowledge of any.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by night_druid »

Dragonhelm wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:42 pm
I thought Gaye was a half-kender. Am I remembering that wrong?
Her dad was human.
So yeah, beyond Dragonlance, they are seen in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and the Forgotten Realms, as mentioned above. It is likely they would be in Planescape as well, though I have no knowledge of any.
_Everything_ makes its way into Planescape. That setting had NPCs out of Dark Sun ;)
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by ripvanwormer »

night_druid wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:51 pm
Dragonhelm wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:42 pm
So yeah, beyond Dragonlance, they are seen in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and the Forgotten Realms, as mentioned above. It is likely they would be in Planescape as well, though I have no knowledge of any.
_Everything_ makes its way into Planescape. That setting had NPCs out of Dark Sun ;)
Although there's a Forgotten Realms logo on Tymora's Luck, it's really a Planescape novel more than it's a Forgotten Realms novel. The story begins in Sigil and extends through the planes; although the focus is on Faerunian deities, Paladine and Sirrion also make appearances, and two of the main characters (Jasmine and Emilo) were born on Krynn.

It's funny, though. Faction War specifically mentions an invasion of Athasian halflings in the Sigilian neighborhood of Curley-Foot, I'm not aware of a single reference in any Planescape product to kender in Sigil apart from Emilo.

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by lookatroopa »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:35 am
It's funny, though. Faction War specifically mentions an invasion of Athasian halflings in the Sigilian neighborhood of Curley-Foot, I'm not aware of a single reference in any Planescape product to kender in Sigil apart from Emilo.
There's a kender called Hofften Burrfoot who runs a pub called The Scribe's Rest, appearing on page 26 of Doors to the Unknown.

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by giulio »

Tass visited Avernus. Do you think that one could write an adventure with a Kender in Avernus and publish it on Dmsguild?
Furthermore, do you think one could edit an homemade Kender class and publish it on Dmsguild?

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

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Dragonhelm wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:42 pm
ripvanwormer wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:42 pm
The Maelstrom's Eye, a Spelljammer novel by Roger E. Moore, featured the kender Gaeadrelle "Gaye" Goldring as one of its main characters. She claims to have been wandering Wildspace for a decade already when Teldin Moore meets her on the Rock of Bral. She mentions studying art in Kozakura in Kara-Tur.
I thought Gaye was a half-kender. Am I remembering that wrong?
The cover painting that Kelly Freas made for The Maelstrom's Eye shows Gaeadrelle "Gaye" Goldring fighting a scro on the deck of a tinker gnome spelljamming ship!

Gaye is my favourite D&D NPC. Teldin really likes her, until he finds out that she is a kender and not a teenage elf. Then he keeps trying to get away from her. There is an awesome scene where the scro leap out of somewhere and try to attack Teldin and she suddenly has this super long polearm from nowhere. That's like Roger Moore doing an outlandish kender pockets roll. He never explains where the weapon came from. And there is no way it would have fitted in Gaye's pockets. :lol:

Anyhoo, the attitude of the other members of Teldin's ship, when Teldin is trying to persuade them that Gaye shouldn't be allowed onboard "because she is a kender" shows that they all just judge her on the fact that she is nice (presumably she has a high charisma). Everyone else overules Teldin and they let her stay onboard. (And she only came onto the ship, because she liked Teldin and wanted to travel with him.)

If I recall correctly, Teldin met Gaye, when he went walking around The Rock of Bral (and the Spelljammer novels have Bral in it's own crystal sphere - so not Krynnspace).

That gives me the impression that there are a number of people of vary rare races in the Spelljammer universe and that most folks don't know their background and don't care about not knowing their background.

But it does make me wonder how common kender would be in Krynnspace. Presumably they must be significantly less common on planets other than Krynn, otherwise they would be spreading out to other crystal spheres more easily.
ripvanwormer wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:42 pm
The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings: "The Kender are native to Krynn and have been featured in numerous DRAGONLANCE® products, including Tales of the Lance and the DRAGONLANCE MC appendix (MC4). Originally found only on Krynn, their insatiable curiosity has led many to stow away aboard spelljamming ships, spreading individuals to many odd places."
I guess that if individual kender get off of Krynn, you are not going to have entire kender communities across the D&D multiverse.

You would end up with half-kender and people with smaller and smaller amounts of kender blood, until maybe it would end up as a "kender bloodline" with some sort of kender-like trait.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Big Mac »

giulio wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:48 am
Tass visited Avernus. Do you think that one could write an adventure with a Kender in Avernus and publish it on Dmsguild?
Furthermore, do you think one could edit an homemade Kender class and publish it on Dmsguild?
You should ask that directly to the people who run DMs Guild.

If someone here tells you to do it, and you spend six months on it and then they pull the product, you might think that is a waste of time.

Dragonlance will eventually go onto DMs Guild, so if you got shut down, it wouldn't be forever.

I believe that the Realmspace products on DMs Guild used the edge case of "doing the Forgotten Realms crystal sphere without mentioning Spelljammer". So you might be able to use kender and just not mention Krynn.

But, go ask them. And go ask them before you start. You know it's an edge case and they will treat you a lot more like a professional if you lay out the issue, and your proposed way of dealing with kender in Avernus, and ask them if they think you should make any adjustments to your plan.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by night_druid »

Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:06 pm
Gaye is my favourite D&D NPC. Teldin really likes her, until he finds out that she is a kender and not a teenage elf. Then he keeps trying to get away from her. There is an awesome scene where the scro leap out of somewhere and try to attack Teldin and she suddenly has this super long polearm from nowhere. That's like Roger Moore doing an outlandish kender pockets roll. He never explains where the weapon came from. And there is no way it would have fitted in Gaye's pockets. :lol:
She has a bag of holding strapped to her chest. And yes, its probably booby-trapped. ^_^
Anyhoo, the attitude of the other members of Teldin's ship, when Teldin is trying to persuade them that Gaye shouldn't be allowed onboard "because she is a kender" shows that they all just judge her on the fact that she is nice (presumably she has a high charisma). Everyone else overules Teldin and they let her stay onboard. (And she only came onto the ship, because she liked Teldin and wanted to travel with him.)
I mark that up as "not experienced with Kender". To the other crewmen, Gaye is just another breed of halfling, or maybe an elf subrace. In a universe of literally hundreds of races and subraces working together, kender are just another race lost in a sea of races. Afterall, you ARE talking about crewmen who, until recently, had been working for a mind flayer, and the gnomes worked for a Giff. I get the impression SJ is a setting where you can pretty much toss the racial preferences tables. Hell, they even had a beholder as a crewman in a later book!
That gives me the impression that there are a number of people of vary rare races in the Spelljammer universe and that most folks don't know their background and don't care about not knowing their background.
Rarity, and an overall tolerance that most groundlings would call madness. We are talking about a city with a beholder as its most famous bar-tender.
But it does make me wonder how common kender would be in Krynnspace. Presumably they must be significantly less common on planets other than Krynn, otherwise they would be spreading out to other crystal spheres more easily.
Probably fewer than tinker gnomes, who are effectively the "gnome" of wildspace, but common enough that if DMs wants to use them, they can. Krynnish races are kinda touche to some gamers and sometimes hard to get right, so its probably best to leave it up to the individual DMs.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Big Mac »

night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:06 pm
Gaye is my favourite D&D NPC. Teldin really likes her, until he finds out that she is a kender and not a teenage elf. Then he keeps trying to get away from her. There is an awesome scene where the scro leap out of somewhere and try to attack Teldin and she suddenly has this super long polearm from nowhere. That's like Roger Moore doing an outlandish kender pockets roll. He never explains where the weapon came from. And there is no way it would have fitted in Gaye's pockets. :lol:
She has a bag of holding strapped to her chest. And yes, its probably booby-trapped. ^_^
Ah righto! Well that's a clever idea. She gives the impression (to Teldin) of being a young kid walking around unarmed, but can get to her weapon when she needs to.

I was thinking she would hit herself in the nose pulling that polearm out, but I guess the extra-dimensional space means she can pull it out at an angle.

I don't think they brought up the fact that Gaye would loose access to her stuff in the phlogistion.
night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:06 pm
Anyhoo, the attitude of the other members of Teldin's ship, when Teldin is trying to persuade them that Gaye shouldn't be allowed onboard "because she is a kender" shows that they all just judge her on the fact that she is nice (presumably she has a high charisma). Everyone else overules Teldin and they let her stay onboard. (And she only came onto the ship, because she liked Teldin and wanted to travel with him.)
I mark that up as "not experienced with Kender". To the other crewmen, Gaye is just another breed of halfling, or maybe an elf subrace. In a universe of literally hundreds of races and subraces working together, kender are just another race lost in a sea of races. Afterall, you ARE talking about crewmen who, until recently, had been working for a mind flayer, and the gnomes worked for a Giff. I get the impression SJ is a setting where you can pretty much toss the racial preferences tables. Hell, they even had a beholder as a crewman in a later book!
Yep and "not experienced with kender" implies there are not many kender on the Rock of Bral.

The crew working for Estriss does imply that they would work with pretty-much anyone.
night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:06 pm
That gives me the impression that there are a number of people of vary rare races in the Spelljammer universe and that most folks don't know their background and don't care about not knowing their background.
Rarity, and an overall tolerance that most groundlings would call madness. We are talking about a city with a beholder as its most famous bar-tender.
That is true.
night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:06 pm
But it does make me wonder how common kender would be in Krynnspace. Presumably they must be significantly less common on planets other than Krynn, otherwise they would be spreading out to other crystal spheres more easily.
Probably fewer than tinker gnomes, who are effectively the "gnome" of wildspace, but common enough that if DMs wants to use them, they can. Krynnish races are kinda touche to some gamers and sometimes hard to get right, so its probably best to leave it up to the individual DMs.
I decided to make a [Krynnspace] How many kender would be in Krynnspace? rather than derail this general topic of kender in other settings. I'm going to reply to this over there.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by night_druid »

Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:09 pm
Ah righto! Well that's a clever idea. She gives the impression (to Teldin) of being a young kid walking around unarmed, but can get to her weapon when she needs to.
It was mentioned in one of the later chapters, IIRC. Its almost cartoony to think of Gaye reaching into her bra and pulling out something, be it staff, thingfinder, etc. (great, now I have a mental image of her pulling out something absurd, like a minigun).
I don't think they brought up the fact that Gaye would loose access to her stuff in the phlogistion.
I don't think she used it in the phlogiston. She's a smart girl, so no doubt she prepared prior to entering the phlog. And no doubt has way more stuff hidden on herself for emergencies. As much as she gets around, she probably has knives strapped to her legs, needle-sticks in the hair, etc. I can imagine her being a walking arsenal, if needed ;)
Yep and "not experienced with kender" implies there are not many kender on the Rock of Bral.
Probably not many, but Bral isn't a huge city and at any given time probably has dozens of races & sub races visiting. Fewer than a dozen kender at any given time is likely. And what are the odds of bumping into the dozen or so kender in a city of 12,000? (either 0 or 100%, given the proclivities of the DM ;) ).
The crew working for Estriss does imply that they would work with pretty-much anyone.
Think that's the attitude of SJ in general.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Big Mac »

night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:09 pm
Ah righto! Well that's a clever idea. She gives the impression (to Teldin) of being a young kid walking around unarmed, but can get to her weapon when she needs to.
It was mentioned in one of the later chapters, IIRC. Its almost cartoony to think of Gaye reaching into her bra and pulling out something, be it staff, thingfinder, etc. (great, now I have a mental image of her pulling out something absurd, like a minigun).
That would be something difficult for them to pull off right, if they ever got Peter Jackson to turn The Cloakmaster Cycle into a D&D movie.

It would probably be better to have Gaye turn around and turn back with something new in her hand.
night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:09 pm
I don't think they brought up the fact that Gaye would loose access to her stuff in the phlogistion.
I don't think she used it in the phlogiston. She's a smart girl, so no doubt she prepared prior to entering the phlog. And no doubt has way more stuff hidden on herself for emergencies. As much as she gets around, she probably has knives strapped to her legs, needle-sticks in the hair, etc. I can imagine her being a walking arsenal, if needed ;)
She could probably have lots of pockets hidden in those colourful strips that make up the skirt of her dress. And with the dress being coloured, she would be able to quickly get to the bits of her dress that had concealed pockets.
night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:09 pm
Yep and "not experienced with kender" implies there are not many kender on the Rock of Bral.
Probably not many, but Bral isn't a huge city and at any given time probably has dozens of races & sub races visiting. Fewer than a dozen kender at any given time is likely. And what are the odds of bumping into the dozen or so kender in a city of 12,000? (either 0 or 100%, given the proclivities of the DM ;) ).
You have a point there. The Rock of Bral would be a fantastic place to have two different kender explorers meet up. It's a totally believable way to sell the origins of a kender husband and wife. :cool:

And there are some other fairly large ports in the Spelljammer campaign setting. They could have low level (less than one percent) populations of kender and realistically randomly generate new off-Krynn kender families.
night_druid wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:21 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:09 pm
The crew working for Estriss does imply that they would work with pretty-much anyone.
Think that's the attitude of SJ in general.
I know that the neogi were marked down as "shoot on sight" except in Clusterspace. (And I know that the ancient Netherese humans were also marked down as "shoot on sight".) But, presumably there is some sort of Law of the Sea, where the evil races don't generally just wipe out the non-evil races.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Tim Baker »

Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:43 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:06 pm
I guess that if individual kender get off of Krynn, you are not going to have entire kender communities across the D&D multiverse.

You would end up with half-kender and people with smaller and smaller amounts of kender blood, until maybe it would end up as a "kender bloodline" with some sort of kender-like trait.
Perhaps there would be solo kenders, rather than entire families of kender.

And perhaps there would be families where a kender is married to a non-kender and you have half-kender children.

Perhaps half-kender would be a lot more common than kender in Krynnspace. Perhaps half-kender might even meet up and some of them might get married and half half-kender children.

Maybe a half-kender community (where the occasional full kender would turn up) would be a viable thing for Krynnspace.
While Big Mac mentioned this in a different thread, my thoughts on it are closer to the original topic of this thread, so I'm quoting it here.

Could this "kender bloodline," where kenders married non-kender, lead to the "microhuman" halflings of D&D 3e? Perhaps this topic has already been covered elsewhere, but in my limited exposure to 3e-era art, halflings appear to be more kender-like than hobbit-like. In 5e, they've returned to their more hobbittish traits. Could the bloodline have eventually diffused as the metaplot of the D&D multiverse has advanced by a century or more since 3e?

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by The Dark »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:35 am
night_druid wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:51 pm
Dragonhelm wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:42 pm
So yeah, beyond Dragonlance, they are seen in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and the Forgotten Realms, as mentioned above. It is likely they would be in Planescape as well, though I have no knowledge of any.
_Everything_ makes its way into Planescape. That setting had NPCs out of Dark Sun ;)
Although there's a Forgotten Realms logo on Tymora's Luck, it's really a Planescape novel more than it's a Forgotten Realms novel. The story begins in Sigil and extends through the planes; although the focus is on Faerunian deities, Paladine and Sirrion also make appearances, and two of the main characters (Jasmine and Emilo) were born on Krynn.

It's funny, though. Faction War specifically mentions an invasion of Athasian halflings in the Sigilian neighborhood of Curley-Foot, I'm not aware of a single reference in any Planescape product to kender in Sigil apart from Emilo.
Planescape is a setting where a healthy dose of fearful respect is a survival mechanism. Most kender in Sigil probably only last until the first time they're on the same block as the Lady of Pain.

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by apotheot »

The Dark wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:08 am
Planescape is a setting where a healthy dose of fearful respect is a survival mechanism. Most kender in Sigil probably only last until the first time they're on the same block as the Lady of Pain.
I agree with this just in general for most settings. For a race with a penchant for kleptomania, no fear of anything, and insatiable curiosity I am guessing individuals surviving for very long might be rare.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by thorr-kan »

I played a kender in a 2E Al-Qadim campaign back in college. Hakim Star'trekker's parents travel to Zakhara from "beyond the skies." He was a sha'ir and a lot of fun in the Assassins' Mountain module.

One of the Friday Night Gaming Group is playing a different kender in a 2E Al-Qadim campaign. He's a mystic of the Ten Thousand. Kender is a good fit for the crazed, sunstruck survivalist he's going for.

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by redking »

It doesn't really fit the tone of the Dragonlance novels, but I expect that kender are hanged regularly in Lawful Neutral jurisdictions. I expect the same on other worlds also.

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Havard »

redking wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:41 pm
It doesn't really fit the tone of the Dragonlance novels, but I expect that kender are hanged regularly in Lawful Neutral jurisdictions. I expect the same on other worlds also.
Quite possibly, but it is worth considering the following:
  • Kender very rarely steal items of actual value. They are fascinated by shiny pieces of junk, cheap colored glass or worthless pearls. Items humans find valuable are seen by Kender as worthless.
  • Kender are incredibly likeable. Any DM presenting them as anything else are IMHO presenting them wrong. This is IMHO why the Solmanic Knights simply lock the Kender up at night and let them go in the morning.
  • Kender are not stupid or incompetent. If people present an actual threat to a Kender, he will defend himself or escape. Being Fearless could mean a Kender will walk into a Dragon's lair by himself, but a Kender will not normally allow himself to be captured by humans etc.
  • Kender provide useful services and entertainment. Kender provide maps, knowledge of the world, fascinating stories and other services to locals in the towns they visit. They make people laugh and smile as much as they make some upset for their lack of understanding terms like "property". This is probably another reason why many commoners welcome Kender. Obviously this may not always apply to worlds where Kender are rare.
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night_druid
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by night_druid »

Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:37 pm
Quite possibly, but it is worth considering the following:
Very true on all points. Something gamers forget all the time, I think, and as such create all manner of bad experiences that sour people on the race.
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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Havard »

night_druid wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:52 pm
Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:37 pm
Quite possibly, but it is worth considering the following:
Very true on all points. Something gamers forget all the time, I think, and as such create all manner of bad experiences that sour people on the race.
Sadly, the reputation of Kender has been ruined by players who use them as an excuse to be a$$holes and DM's who assume (sometimes incorrectly) that this is what the race is there for.

Bards, Halflings and some other character types have also suffered from similar attitudes.

PS: Just to make it clear, I am not accusing anyone in this thread of having such attitudes. :)

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by redking »

Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:56 pm
Sadly, the reputation of Kender has been ruined by players who use them as an excuse to be a$$holes and DM's who assume (sometimes incorrectly) that this is what the race is there for.
There are likely quite a few of these kender PCs that got hanged by a wrathful DM.

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Re: Kender in Other Settings

Post by Havard »

redking wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:14 pm
Havard wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:56 pm
Sadly, the reputation of Kender has been ruined by players who use them as an excuse to be a$$holes and DM's who assume (sometimes incorrectly) that this is what the race is there for.
There are likely quite a few of these kender PCs that got hanged by a wrathful DM.
For sure. But I wonder how many they are. I'm guessing most of these were not actually played, but a result of players boasting about what they would do in that situation, or DM's talking about what they would do to such a player. I also suspect most of these aren't real Dragonlance fans or people who have read the novels. I think it is the usual case of a few bad apples :)

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