Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

The civilized world has been reduced to a series of points of light in a great wilderness of danger and monsters.
The Book-House: Find Nentir Vale products.
Post Reply
User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

Reading a thread about D&D worlds, I came across this:
ripvanwormer wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:51 am
The Fallen Lands
The default 4e world. Also known as "Points of Light" or the Forgotten Kingdoms, or simply the World. Home of the fallen empires of Arkhosia, Bael Turath, and Nerath, and current home of Nentir Vale.
It was interesting, because I'd never thought to refer to Nerath (aka The World, "Points of Light," or Nentir Vale) using this term. I took a look at Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and it does appear in the lore section at the beginning of the Fighter class. Here's the text (emphasis mine).
Heroes of the Fallen Lands wrote: This style builds atop the foundation of whatever early training the fighter received, whether formal schooling in the military arts or trial by fire on the borders of the fallen lands, and then borrows from the styles of every opponent the fighter meets.
It isn't capitalized, so I took it as a reference to the empire of Nerath. However, it has a nice ring to it. I'm not sure it applies to the whole setting, but it ties in to a "Points of Light" setting reflecting that the land has now fallen.

On an aside, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms refers to the "forgotten kingdoms" twice in the introduction to the Cavalier sub-class (emphasis mine).
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms wrote: At one time, cavaliers formed into chivalrous orders that were dedicated to the ideal of protecting the civilized realms. The forgotten kingdoms that ruled the land relied on cavaliers to help keep the peace. Those cavaliers maintained not only the military security of the land, but also its moral strength. A cavalier might drive off a marauding troll, but she could also mediate a dispute between two farmers, break the power of a corrupt noble, or free a wrongly accused prisoner.

As with many things from the time of the forgotten kingdoms, the cavaliers’ glory proved fleeting. The kingdoms of old grew weak, and some of their decline could be laid at the feet of cavaliers who strayed from the righteous path. All too often, cavaliers fell victim to the very evils they had sworn to combat. Power corrupts, and in many cases cavaliers served as perfect examples of how power can twist the most resolute heart.
It's less clear to me what "kingdoms" are being referred to here. Bael Turath seems unlikely. Maybe Arkhosia? Is this another reference to the empire of Nerath?

Returning to my original point, what do you think of using "The Fallen Lands" as a title for the Nentir Vale's setting?

User avatar
Zeromaru X
Scion of Arkhosia
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:24 am
Gender: male
Location: San Gil, Colombia
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Zeromaru X »

I guess that the forgotten kingdoms may indeed be Arkhosia, Nerath and other really forgotten nations (such as Mira, mentioned in Manual of the Planes).

As for the topic, I guess that the Fallen Lands is a good name for the post-fall Nerathi regions, but as you said, it doesn't apply to all of the setting, as there are other kingdoms out there still surviving and, in the case of the evil ones, are even thriving (such as Vailin, Karkoth and the Iron Circle, among others).

The official name that WotC gave to the setting was "The D&D World", because it was intended to be the starting point for many DMs to start their campaigns, but I guess there are a lot of D&D Worlds out there. I'll settle for The Nentir Vale World, because that region is the most known of this nameless world across the D&D multiverse.

ripvanwormer
Black Dragon
Posts: 3714
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:14 pm
Gender: other

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by ripvanwormer »

It's an old thread, but I guess I was looking for a name that a planar or spelljammer traveler from, say, Sigil or Toril might call the world. "The World" is too generic, Nentir Vale too small and isolated, Nerath no longer extant. "The Fallen Lands" seemed like a reasonable name a visitor from elsewhere might use to distinguish the world of Nerath from other worlds and planes, even if the entire planet isn't fallen or, for that matter, land.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 26672
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Big Mac »

Nice spot, Tim.

I remember Ripvanwormer writing that, but it's so long ago, that I'd not thought about it.
ripvanwormer wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:05 pm
It's an old thread, but I guess I was looking for a name that a planar or spelljammer traveler from, say, Sigil or Toril might call the world. "The World" is too generic, Nentir Vale too small and isolated, Nerath no longer extant. "The Fallen Lands" seemed like a reasonable name a visitor from elsewhere might use to distinguish the world of Nerath from other worlds and planes, even if the entire planet isn't fallen or, for that matter, land.
It's an older thread, but it checks out.
Image

Shannon Appelcline has some words to say on this on DMs Guild:
Player Essentials: Heroes of the Fallen Lands (4e):
Shannon Appelcline at DMs Guild wrote:About the Title. The Fallen Lands is a reference to the points-of-light setting of D&D 4e, where civilization has fallen, and darkness is seeping across its ruins. More specifically, it probably relates to the fallen human empires of the Nentir Vale, such as the Empire of Nerath, once home to the classic classes and races of this book.
And Shannon says something about Player Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (4e):
Shannon Appelcline at DMs Guild wrote:About the Title. Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms clearly refers to a Points-of-Light world where civilization has fallen to encroaching darkness. More specifically, it probably refers to the lost empires of some of the races of this book — such as the dragonborn empire of Arkoshia and the tiefling empire of Bael Turath.
So, if Shannon is right, there would be one area of the Points of Light world referred to as the Fallen Lands and another area referred to as the Forgotten Kingdoms.

Forgotten Realms has regions called the Serpent Kingdoms and Shining South. So maybe parts of the Conquest of Nerath map should have these names.

But it looks like the book is about class options (rather than geography). Are there any clues to regions that tie into any of the classes? For example is there anything about a fortress where Knights get trained, that could nail down one of the Fallen Lands? Is there anything like a druid circle that could nail down where the Sentinels guard the area around the Forgotten Kingdoms?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

ripvanwormer
Black Dragon
Posts: 3714
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:14 pm
Gender: other

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by ripvanwormer »

Big Mac wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:35 pm
So, if Shannon is right, there would be one area of the Points of Light world referred to as the Fallen Lands and another area referred to as the Forgotten Kingdoms.
I don't think that's a strong interpretation. The former territories of the various fallen empires (Bael Turath, Arkhosia, Nerath) overlap. There are Turathi ruins within the historical borders of Nerath, for example.

Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and Heroes of the Fallen Lands both describe the world this way:
The current age has no all-encompassing empire. The world is shrouded in a dark age, caught between the collapse of the last great empire and the rise of the next, which might be centuries away. Minor kingdoms prosper, to be sure: baronies, holdings, city-states. But each settlement appears as a point of light in the widespread darkness, an island of civilization in the wilderness that covers the world. Adventurers can rest in settlements between adventures, but no settlement is entirely safe. Adventures break out within (and under) such places as often as not.
Basically, they're saying the "point of light" world as a whole has no current all-encompassing empire, since the great empires and kingdoms of ages past have fallen. Modern nations like the Iron Circle and Karkoth are "minor kingdoms" compared to the glories of Nerath or the dark splendours of Bael Turath. "Fallen Lands" describes the world as it is and "Forgotten Kingdoms" describes the world as it was.

User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

Zeromaru X wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:20 pm
The official name that WotC gave to the setting was "The D&D World", because it was intended to be the starting point for many DMs to start their campaigns, but I guess there are a lot of D&D Worlds out there. I'll settle for The Nentir Vale World, because that region is the most known of this nameless world across the D&D multiverse.
Yeah, from a PC perspective, I'm fine with calling it "The World" as the in-world name. But it's not a very helpful name for talking to other D&D fans. At the very least, I have to add "4e" to whittle it down a bit.

I tend to call it the Nentir Vale setting as well. Granted, it's a tiny portion of the overall map (and the map is a limited portion of a world that could be vastly larger), but it's the part that fans know best. I suppose it's a bit like referring to Oerth as the Greyhawk setting.

User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:05 pm
It's an old thread, but I guess I was looking for a name that a planar or spelljammer traveler from, say, Sigil or Toril might call the world. "The World" is too generic, Nentir Vale too small and isolated, Nerath no longer extant. "The Fallen Lands" seemed like a reasonable name a visitor from elsewhere might use to distinguish the world of Nerath from other worlds and planes, even if the entire planet isn't fallen or, for that matter, land.
From the perspective of an in-universe traveler from another crystal sphere, I like that they'd call it the "Fallen Land." From their perspective, the empire that they presumably interacted with has been gone...fallen...for a century. It might not be what all spelljammers would call it, as they might interact with other polities, but for those who had historically traveled to Nearath, it would be a great title. I'd totally use that to give it flavor and subtly express the point of view of a spelljammer if I were using that in my game.

User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

Big Mac wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:35 pm
It's an older thread, but it checks out.
Excellent reference. :)
Big Mac wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:35 pm
Shannon Appelcline has some words to say on this on DMs Guild
Great finds. I hadn't thought to look there.
Big Mac wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:35 pm
So, if Shannon is right, there would be one area of the Points of Light world referred to as the Fallen Lands and another area referred to as the Forgotten Kingdoms.
That's possible. It's also possible that these would overlap, as they're separated (at least in part) by time, rather than distance. So the Forgotten Kingdoms could already be "forgotten" when the empire of Nerath was around. They had inhabited some of the same area as Nerath, but in the past. And then Nerath fell, and the same area was both the "Fallen Lands" and also the former location of some of those "Forgotten Kingdoms." I'm not certain that's the case here, but I thought the edges of Arkoshia and Bael Turath overlapped the more modern empire of Nerath.
Big Mac wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:35 pm
But it looks like the book is about class options (rather than geography). Are there any clues to regions that tie into any of the classes? For example is there anything about a fortress where Knights get trained, that could nail down one of the Fallen Lands? Is there anything like a druid circle that could nail down where the Sentinels guard the area around the Forgotten Kingdoms?
There are numerous references to Fallcrest, Nerath, Arkoshia, Bael Turath, and other location names in the books. Unlike the 4e PHB, there's no mistaking that this book uses Nentir Vale as its default setting. I didn't come across anything that ties those specific references to "Forgotten Kingdoms" or "Fallen Lands" to particular places, however. Great question, though. I like the way you think about solving these puzzles.

User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:23 am
the "point of light" world as a whole has no current all-encompassing empire, since the great empires and kingdoms of ages past have fallen. Modern nations like the Iron Circle and Karkoth are "minor kingdoms" compared to the glories of Nerath or the dark splendours of Bael Turath. "Fallen Lands" describes the world as it is and "Forgotten Kingdoms" describes the world as it was.
That's the way I interpreted it as well. Good summary.

User avatar
Zeromaru X
Scion of Arkhosia
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:24 am
Gender: male
Location: San Gil, Colombia
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Zeromaru X »

Tim Baker wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:47 am
I'm not certain that's the case here, but I thought the edges of Arkoshia and Bael Turath overlapped the more modern empire of Nerath.
Nerath heartlands were mostly in the lands that were once the heartlands of Bael Turath. With Arkhosia its what you say, they just came to the edges. But, there are a lot of Arkhosian ruins in Nerathi lands because the dragonborn used flying cities to explore the world.

CrossPlanes
Goblin
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:12 am

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by CrossPlanes »

I think Fallen Lands is a fine name. Do we know if Nerath was an empire, continent, or world?

I've fallen in love with it since I started playing 5E. I really wish I'd stuck around for more of 4E but I probably couldn't find anyone to play it anyhow.

User avatar
Zeromaru X
Scion of Arkhosia
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:24 am
Gender: male
Location: San Gil, Colombia
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Zeromaru X »

CrossPlanes wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:44 am
I think Fallen Lands is a fine name. Do we know if Nerath was an empire, continent, or world?

I've fallen in love with it since I started playing 5E. I really wish I'd stuck around for more of 4E but I probably couldn't find anyone to play it anyhow.
We do know Nerath was a world-spanning empire that spanned at least 2 continents.

I also love the Nentir Vale and its world, and it's my setting of choice. I've compiled a lot of stuff here, if you like to delve.

User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

CrossPlanes wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:44 am
I've fallen in love with it since I started playing 5E. I really wish I'd stuck around for more of 4E but I probably couldn't find anyone to play it anyhow.
Hi CrossPlanes. Welcome to the Piazza! I noticed that this was your first post. You might want to drop by the Introduce yourself here thread to share some information about yourself. You can also create a small signature that will appear at the bottom of each post. That way, each time someone reads a post from you, they'll see your latest passion project or a link to your blog. It's good to have you join us. :)

User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

Zeromaru X wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:03 am
I also love the Nentir Vale and its world, and it's my setting of choice. I've compiled a lot of stuff here, if you like to delve.
Zeromaru X is our resident Nentir Vale expert! He has a plethora of information that he graciously shares with us. :)

CrossPlanes
Goblin
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:12 am

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by CrossPlanes »

Thank you both. I'm glad I finally checked it out.

User avatar
capesword
Goblin
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:41 pm
Gender: male

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by capesword »

One of the alternative names for the Nentir Vale setting itself is the Dawn War campaign setting. As a brand, I think it's kinda catchy.
Alex MacNeil
capesword

User avatar
Tim Baker
Axe Beak
Posts: 3584
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:51 am
Gender: male
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is "The Fallen Lands" a good term for Nerath/The World?

Post by Tim Baker »

capesword wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:45 pm
One of the alternative names for the Nentir Vale setting itself is the Dawn War campaign setting. As a brand, I think it's kinda catchy.
I like the name. It's evocative, and not particularly specific, which can work well for a setting name. I wonder if it would cause casual players to believe the emphasis was on an ongoing war, rather than one that took place during the world's pre-history. It's actually one of the settings where a full-blown war is unlikely, at least in the Nentir Vale portion of the setting, due to its "Points of Light" nature.

Post Reply

Return to “Nentir Vale”