Surtur - D&D lore?

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Havard
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Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by Havard »

In this thread in the 5E forum I talk about Uldrak, an Empyreal servant of Surtur.

Has any other D&D material touched on Surtur beyond what is found in Norse mythlogy? Has his enmity with Tiamat been mentioned before Descent Into Avernus?

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by KtA »

Surtur was described as the deity of fire giants in 1E Deities & Demigods. (He is fully described in the "Norse Mythos" section, but has a reference in "Nonhumans' Deities" as well.) And I think that has held true through later editions; it certainly is the case in 5E.

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by ripvanwormer »

There's some more detail on Surtr in Planes of Chaos, in the description of Muspelheim in Ysgard. There's nothing on a rivalry or enmity with Tiamat.

Thrym got more detail in 3.5 because of his rivalry with Kostchtchie.

Both Surtr and Thrym were notably left out of the descriptions of giantish gods in Giantcraft.

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by Havard »

KtA wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:30 pm
Surtur was described as the deity of fire giants in 1E Deities & Demigods. (He is fully described in the "Norse Mythos" section, but has a reference in "Nonhumans' Deities" as well.) And I think that has held true through later editions; it certainly is the case in 5E.
ripvanwormer wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:31 pm
There's some more detail on Surtr in Planes of Chaos, in the description of Muspelheim in Ysgard. There's nothing on a rivalry or enmity with Tiamat.

Thrym got more detail in 3.5 because of his rivalry with Kostchtchie.

Both Surtr and Thrym were notably left out of the descriptions of giantish gods in Giantcraft.
Thanks, both of you :)

Looks like there is room for fleshing out this deity more.

I like how Descent into Avernus added this Empyrean who might be Surtur's son(?).

I guess Uldrak (the Empyrean) going against Tiamat would not necessarily have to do with any deep felt emnity between Surtur and Tiamat even though it was done to achieve glory in Surtur's name...

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by Coronoides »

Useful stuff for my Age of Ostoria project. Any information on when or how the enmity started?
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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by Havard »

Coronoides wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:19 pm
Useful stuff for my Age of Ostoria project. Any information on when or how the enmity started?
The book is pretty vague on the details. The main gist of it is that Uldrak, an Empyrean of Surtur (not sure if that makes him his spawn, or just a follower) decided to embark on an epic quest into Avernus to attack Tiamat in order to impress Surtur.

I think we can elaborate on that any way we want :)

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by KtA »

Yeah, possibly Uldrak just decided to try because Tiamat was the most impressive dragon he could find :)

I don't think they are necessarily traditional enemies, but killing Tiamat might still open up a power vacuum that Surtur could use.

I think the underlying idea is an ancient giant/dragon enmity that 5E has used in the Tyranny of Dragons/Storm King's Thunder adventures, though.

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by Coronoides »

The inclusion of a giant race empyrean in canon has important implications for reconciling 5e sources and material on giants from early editions. Suddenly, it is confirmed that ‘Titans’ seen in earlier editions exist in 5e. Perhaps the Ostorian Age is before the empyrean move to the outer planes?
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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by ripvanwormer »

Coronoides wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:13 am
The inclusion of a giant race empyrean in canon has important implications for reconciling 5e sources and material on giants from early editions. Suddenly, it is confirmed that ‘Titans’ seen in earlier editions exist in 5e. Perhaps the Ostorian Age is before the empyrean move to the outer planes?
Yeah, empyreans seem to be basically the same thing as titans in 1e-3x (4e titans are a different thing; they're just larger, more primal giants). They were renamed because (titan) is now a tag added to a few different monsters, including empyreans, krakens, and the Tarrasque.

In the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms accessory Giantcraft, titans are the descendants of Lanaxis, eldest son of Annam and Othea, whose children fled to the outer planes after Lanaxis poisoned his mother.

5e titans are just "the celestial children of the gods" and they're not necessarily descended from Lanaxis. Nalkara is the daughter of Thrym and the goddess Auril, for example. Unlike the titans in Wrath of the Immortals, which were mortal servants of the Immortals granted an elevated status, empyreals seem to be born this way due to their parentage.

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by KtA »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 am
Yeah, empyreans seem to be basically the same thing as titans in 1e-3x (4e titans are a different thing; they're just larger, more primal giants). They were renamed because (titan) is now a tag added to a few different monsters, including empyreans, krakens, and the Tarrasque.
Yes, definitely 5e empyrean = 1e through 3e titan.

The 5E version of Against the Giants in Tales from the Yawning Portal has an empyrean imprisoned where the original adventure has a titan, which I think confirms this.
Unlike the titans in Wrath of the Immortals, which were mortal servants of the Immortals granted an elevated status, empyreals seem to be born this way due to their parentage.
Yeah, BECMI Immortals titans are ultimately meant to be 'the same thing' I think (Titans showed up in OD&D, they were briefly mentioned in Monsters & Treasures and fully statted in the Greyhawk supplement) but the lore developed on separate lines.

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Re: Surtur - D&D lore?

Post by Cromstar »

Havard wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:01 pm
In this thread in the 5E forum I talk about Uldrak, an Empyreal servant of Surtur.

Has any other D&D material touched on Surtur beyond what is found in Norse mythlogy? Has his enmity with Tiamat been mentioned before Descent Into Avernus?

-Havard
I double checked a few 2nd Edition sources, and Surtr in those sources is pretty much fixated on the Aesir. No other rivalries or enemies are noted for him, though Monster Mythology does state that Skurreus (sp?) Stonebones doesn't care for his brothers Surtr and Thrym, which is why he keeps away from most everyone else. Beyond that, not much. I haven't checked some of the Planescape side accessories like On Hallowed Ground for references yet, however.

I doubt there was anything about Surtr and Tiamat having issues before, other than a general giants-dragons rivalry, though. They move in pretty different circles in a lot of ways.

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